playing poker pissed
- Thread starter Relahni
- Start date
Rollem
two kinds of wonderful
kained&able
Here for the football.
Pre flop AK fold in a cash game - does not compute ...
I consider myself a tight player but this also does not compute for me! Unless im ridiculously short stacked and at least three people are ahead of me and all bet heavily(so i would presume that they have two aces or two kings which would fuck me straight away) i would never fold ak pre flop. If your prepared to fold the best hand in the game what wont you fold?
dave
Idaho
continuity character
Not even in that situation am I folding AK in a cash game. You are going to get AA or KK less than once in every 200 odd hands. You are going to wait and pay another 20 sets of blinds (on average) to get a better hand 
Believe me. Cash game, AK, get your chips in the middle.
Bet, raise, re-raise, you call.
Other players turn over KK, AQ, JJ - you are still in reasonable shape (considering)
Believe me. Cash game, AK, get your chips in the middle.
Bet, raise, re-raise, you call.
Other players turn over KK, AQ, JJ - you are still in reasonable shape (considering)
kained&able
Here for the football.
Like i said. Only time i would even consider folding it is if a lot of peeps are b4 me and chuck there chips in first. Even then if im not going to have to go all in staright after the flop i'm playing it and might play it short stacked anyway if i've only got enough money for the next few blinds or whatever.
dave
dave
heinous seamus
Perfect in an empty room
kained&able
Here for the football.
ak is a better hand then pocket bullets! well i reckon anyway.
dave
well i reckon anyway.dave
fractionMan
Custom Title
Pre flop AK fold in a cash game - does not compute ...
to be fair I've done it about 5 times in 70000 hands
fractionMan
Custom Title
I definately want you lot round my table. You are total rocks
If he really is that tight then it's an easy call to see a flop. You can bet for information on any flop, and either get the info, or get him to fold. If the flop comes with an A, K or Q and you bet out - he will fold any beaten pocket pair. If the flop comes low and raggy, you bet out and he folds any AK/AQ. If he comes over the top at you on a A high flop then he has a set of Aces and your done. If he calls the A high, you are either tying with AK or he has AQ. If the flop is low and raggy and he plays back, then he has high pockets and you are done with the hand.
Postion matters much more against tricky aggressive players. Predictable, tight players are much less of a threat when they are downwind of you.
I think your assumptions about how he'll play the hand aren't correct.
I think he'll raise AK on an a or K flop 80% of the time.
Say it's a K or A high flop. You lead for 2/3 of the pot and he minraises. What then? He could be doing that with his entire range. Calling or re-raising there means you're willing to stack off, which I don't think you should be doing in this situation. If he flat calls you're probably worse off, cos when you bet the turn he's going to shove on you and you're going to be commited to call. He's never folding his AK in position as the pre flop aggressor.
I say 3bet or fold pre as at least the descisions post flop are easier to make.
fractionMan
Custom Title
I'm talking very rare occasions vs certain players with 100bb+ stacks.
I just wanted to give internetstalker an example.
Idaho
continuity character
If I make a decent bet at the flop and he min raises me? Well it's a weird play from him. But now I am getting almost 3-1 on a call, so I call and check the turn. If he bets out with any decent sized raise, then I'll fold. Other wise we check to the river and I stick all my chips in there. It's a cash game. It's all about balls and bankroll.
fractionMan
Custom Title
pot iboutas now 60 (assuming 200nl)
Turn's a blank.
you check he bets 60, setting himself up for a pot sized shove on the river.
heinous seamus
Perfect in an empty room
I'm all in
edit:weird, I typed that in caps
edit:weird, I typed that in caps
fractionMan
Custom Title
I think that's about the only real option once you get here. He's not calling with any hands you beat but will be folding any underpairs he double barreled.
edit:
I've just read that back and it makes no sense.
equity calcs below.
heinous seamus
Perfect in an empty room
I didn't actually read the hand by the way. I just like shouting I'M ALL IN
fractionMan
Custom Title
Scenario.
He raises 3.5bb pre with JJ+ AQ+, you call from blinds
You bet 5/8 pot (5bb) on any flop
He minraises his entire range
You call if you've hit, otherwise fold.
You check turn and he bets pot if he's got top pair or better, otherwise folds.
You shove if you've still got top pair.
He calls your shove.
on a K board his turn bet/calling range is 2.1% of hands. JJ+ AQ+ is 4.2% so he's bet calling half the time.
on an A high board you're better off. His bet calling range is now 3/4 of his hands.
On the flops you bet fold cos you've missed you lose 8.5bb
[this is 66% of total cases=-5.6bb]
So you're winning -9bb a hand if it plays out like this.
This assumes he never hits a set with jj,qq and kk.
My calculations could be complete bollocks though And my assumptions of how the hand very simplistic (basically you get it all in if you hit and he hits) but essentially it highlights how you're going to win a small pot or lose a big one.
3betting it to 14bb pre changes it significantly. He'll fold jj and AQ pre I think, netting you 5bb 40% of the time straight off. He'll call/raise/stackoff any 15bb flop bet with top pair, any overpair or set and fold everything else. 20% of the time you make him fold his AK on the flop, 10% you tie with AK. 7% of the time you'll bet fold into QQ, 3% of the time you'll make it fold. 7% of the time you'll bet fold into KK, 1.5% of the time you'll make it fold an 1.5% of the time you go bust. 7% of the time you'll bet fold into AA and 3% of the time you go bust.
5*0.4 = 2
15*0.2 = 3
0*0.1 = 0
-29*0.07 = -4.75
15*0.03 = 0.45
-29*0.07 = -4.75
15*0.015 = 0.23
-100*0.015 = -1.5
-29*0.07 = -4.75
-100*0.03 = -3
-13bb/hand
The more I look at this the more I think I've got this completely wrong
He raises 3.5bb pre with JJ+ AQ+, you call from blinds
You bet 5/8 pot (5bb) on any flop
He minraises his entire range
You call if you've hit, otherwise fold.
You check turn and he bets pot if he's got top pair or better, otherwise folds.
You shove if you've still got top pair.
He calls your shove.
on a K board his turn bet/calling range is 2.1% of hands. JJ+ AQ+ is 4.2% so he's bet calling half the time.
you win 100bb 0.19 of the time, lose 100bb 0.32 of the time and win (4+1)+(5+5) 15bb 1/2 the time. [this is 17% of total cases 19 -32 +7.5 *0.17=-5.67bb]
on an A high board you're better off. His bet calling range is now 3/4 of his hands.
You win 100bb 0.42 the time, lose 100bb 0.32 of the time and 15 1/4 of the time [this is also 17% 42-32+3.75 total cases - +13.25bb ev*0.17=2.25bb]
On the flops you bet fold cos you've missed you lose 8.5bb
[this is 66% of total cases=-5.6bb]
So you're winning -9bb a hand if it plays out like this.
This assumes he never hits a set with jj,qq and kk.
My calculations could be complete bollocks though
And my assumptions of how the hand very simplistic (basically you get it all in if you hit and he hits) but essentially it highlights how you're going to win a small pot or lose a big one.3betting it to 14bb pre changes it significantly. He'll fold jj and AQ pre I think, netting you 5bb 40% of the time straight off. He'll call/raise/stackoff any 15bb flop bet with top pair, any overpair or set and fold everything else. 20% of the time you make him fold his AK on the flop, 10% you tie with AK. 7% of the time you'll bet fold into QQ, 3% of the time you'll make it fold. 7% of the time you'll bet fold into KK, 1.5% of the time you'll make it fold an 1.5% of the time you go bust. 7% of the time you'll bet fold into AA and 3% of the time you go bust.
5*0.4 = 2
15*0.2 = 3
0*0.1 = 0
-29*0.07 = -4.75
15*0.03 = 0.45
-29*0.07 = -4.75
15*0.015 = 0.23
-100*0.015 = -1.5
-29*0.07 = -4.75
-100*0.03 = -3
-13bb/hand
The more I look at this the more I think I've got this completely wrong
fractionMan
Custom Title
Idaho
continuity character
I check the turn and he bets, I fold. Easy. I'm looking for weakness against a tight player. Give them a chance to throw the hand away preflop, and on the flop. If they are still around, I'm done with the hand.
fractionMan
Custom Title
I'm just saying position is paramount in these types of pots. Being in position means you can win big pots and lose small ones rather than the other way around. He can easily knock you of AK with his own because he has position
fractionMan
Custom Title
I can't believe I spent a whole hour fiddling with pokerstove and my calcs could still be hideously wrong
Idaho
continuity character
i said, i won $4 the other day, you bunch of fucking elitists
Sorry - I didn't comment because I thought you were only addressing the high rollers. I don't have the nerve or bankroll to play at those stakes
Idaho
continuity character
Position is ever important. But in some hands and against some players it can work in reverse. If you are both playing AK and the flop comes rags, it's the first to get their money in who wins.
Likewise against a tight player. If you get your money in first there is a much greater chance they will fold a middling hand or middling draw.
Rollem
two kinds of wonderful
Sorry - I didn't comment because I thought you were only addressing the high rollers. I don't have the nerve or bankroll to play at those stakes
fractionMan
Custom Title
Oh yeah. well played rollem 
The happy meals are on you!
The happy meals are on you!
fractionMan
Custom Title
We should have a thread about donking into the pre-flop raiser oop. It's not something I ever do heads up. I think it has it's applications though.
I generally raise donk bets with any piece of the board and get folds > 50% of the time. I've found good players sometimes do this with sets in order to get the money in and bad players do it with poor-mediocre hands that can't stand much pressure.
What you haven't told them Rollem is that you were heads up and had a stack of just 930 against 12,570.
That makes it a lot more impressive tbh.
Rollem
two kinds of wonderful
oh i dont like to brag about it relahni
(and i dont really understand what you just said either
)
