Players you don't get

[Meltingpot]

I just looked over the whole thread and there isn't a single player mentioned that I don't rate very highly. Perhaps because I'm used to seeing the real rubbish.

Ian Botham. Ten thousand extra on the gate receipts. Job done. Which is just as well because he never actually did anything remotely constructive on the pitch.

Darren Freeman. A career based almost entirely on falling over and arguing with everyone.

David Philpott. Slow, dumb, and arguably the dirtiest defender ever to play outside of Uruguay.

Angus Davidson. If there were stats for dribbling to the corner flag and then getting very confused about what to do next, he would have been top of the list every season. Also unrivalled, so far as I am aware, for the quantity of alcohol he would consume BEFORE a game.

I always understood Ian Botham was an effective if somewhat unsubtle defender?

 

[ChrisFilter]

Did you miss the quotation marks around "job" ?

No, I just took them to mean that you think they're both shit at the same job.

 

[ChrisFilter]

Carlton Cole does the same job(and a couple of others, like shooting) as heskey and is much better then him so there.


dave

He's much better at shooting, but he's not as good as Heskey at supporting forward play. This is why Capello, who I think you'll agree knows more than us, employs him over Cole.

 

[Sesquipedalian]

No, I just took them to mean that you think they're both shit at the same job.

Well you are wrong.
Too intent on sniping to comprehend.


(And i am way past caring.)

 

[kained&able]

He's much better at shooting, but he's not as good as Heskey at supporting forward play. This is why Capello, who I think you'll agree knows more than us, employs him over Cole.

I reckon cole is as good as heskey with that stuff. Certainly very very close. His hold up play is getting very good now. Heskey might be slightly better on account of cole being happy enough shooting from 35 yards out rather then waiting for support though.

Cole is also a lot better then heskey(well these days) at taking on defenders.


Heskey is better at sitting on the bench then cole.


dave

 

[ChrisFilter]

Well you are wrong.
Too intent on sniping to comprehend.


(And i am way past caring.)

To be fair, you worded it badly. You said they did the same job and I, er, took that to mean that you were saying they did the same job.

 

[ChrisFilter]

I reckon cole is as good as heskey with that stuff. Certainly very very close. His hold up play is getting very good now. Heskey might be slightly better on account of cole being happy enough shooting from 35 yards out rather then waiting for support though.

Cole is also a lot better then heskey(well these days) at taking on defenders.


Heskey is better at sitting on the bench then cole.


dave

And yet Capello still thinks Heskey is better. So does Rooney. You should probably write them both a letter telling them how it really is. Send it special delivery, this could be important!

 

[kained&able]

Just you wait chris. It will cole and rooney in south africa!!! Especially with heskey being confined to the bench more often then not at villa.

Cole was injured for the last game before you start.

I have never heard rooney say heskey is better then cole. Cole wasn't around the squad last time i heard rooney say his favourite partner was heskey.


dave

 

[London_Calling]

If you're still at the stage of your football education where you think it's a matter of selecting the best player in each position, I hope you enjoy the journey to greater wisdom. I'd encourage people to try and grasp why it is England have qualified so well with Heskey rather than be so quick with the judgements.

Elsewhere, if some old bastard had said to me when in my 20s what I'm going to say now, I'd have told them to stop being to condescending - so feel free. It is my opinion that if you 'get' Michael Carrick properly, you are ready to move onto a better understanding of the game; Carrick is my benchmark for people who can grasp the bigger picture rather than the people still collecting trading cards and thinking they know it all. There ya go.

 

[kained&able]

Always rated carrick!(a shock i know, seeing as where he came from)

Just needs a genuine defensive midfielder next to him to do the tackling. His positional play defensively is pretty damn good though. Think he would work best in a three man central midfield as well, kinda how man city lined up yesterday and how barca line up every game.

Heskey is a good foil for rooney there is no doubt about it, but i'm fairly sure cole can do that job to the same standard as heskey and offer a goal threat at the same time.

He is also bigger, stronger and faster then heskey.


dave

 

[stavros]

Always rated carrick!(a shock i know, seeing as where he came from)

Just needs a genuine defensive midfielder next to him to do the tackling. His positional play defensively is pretty damn good though. Think we would work best in a three man central midfield as well, kinda how man city lined up yesterday and how barca line up every game.

dave

I've long suggested a Carrick-Hargreaves axis in the middle of the park for England. Neither may be as good, but the basic system would be similar to that which served Italy and Spain so well with Pirlo-Gattusso and Xavi-Senna.

 

[kained&able]

if carrick is playing id like to see.

------------Hargreaves------

-----carrick-------- gerrard---------

Rooney--------------------------------Young


------------------C.Cole-----------------


Considering we have attacking fullbacks I reckon it could work.

Although i'd be happier with 442 and defensive(ish) midfielder and gerrard in the centre.


dave

 

[steveo87]

Crouch is a good player. People misunderstand him though - they think he's a target man, but he isn't. He's actually much better with the ball at his feet.

casing point about Crouch:



Also agree that David Beckham.

Genuinly, I don't think there is a player anywhere in the world that is more oveer rated than he.

 

[Wills]

Heskey scored his first goal for 7 months yesterday.. how can he be classed as a striker?

 

[Bunjaj Pali]

Half the Liverpool squad at the moment. I don't mean that as a dig at Liverpool fans. I just honestly don't know where Benitez finds such mediocrity.

 

[ericjarvis]

I always understood Ian Botham was an effective if somewhat unsubtle defender?

No. He was a striker. Slow, unable to read the game, couldn't pass shoot or head the ball, and financially one of the smartest signings Scunny ever made.

 

[revol68]

If you're still at the stage of your football education where you think it's a matter of selecting the best player in each position, I hope you enjoy the journey to greater wisdom. I'd encourage people to try and grasp why it is England have qualified so well with Heskey rather than be so quick with the judgements.

Elsewhere, if some old bastard had said to me when in my 20s what I'm going to say now, I'd have told them to stop being to condescending - so feel free. It is my opinion that if you 'get' Michael Carrick properly, you are ready to move onto a better understanding of the game; Carrick is my benchmark for people who can grasp the bigger picture rather than the people still collecting trading cards and thinking they know it all. There ya go.

Is there a Blue Moon outside?


It does seem to me that a lot of people don't get Carrick because what he does and what he is expected to do isn't so obvious as the likes of a midfield battler like Hargreaves/Fletcher, nor the box to box Roy of the Rovers Gerard and Lampard types. Carricks job is primarily to keep play ticking over, to set the tempo of the game (as Alonso did at Liverpool for quite some time whilst being overlooked by many who couldn't see past Stevie Me) and defensively he isn't about sliding tackles and wrestling for the ball, he's about shielding the back four, blocking off potential passes and runners, some of his best work goes unnoticed precisely because he's shut off a pass or run and the ball doesn't go towards him.

If anyone plays FIFA and knows how to defend by jockeying back covering runs and passes with the player in your control and using the pressure function to make another defender close down the man with the ball they should understand that Carrick is the first player and that's precisely why he needs a good ball winner beside him.

And yes I'm well aware that using FIFA to explain Carrick's qualities in real life probably undermines my argument rather than adding weight to it but it's just something that popped into my head.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Heskey scored his first goal for 7 months yesterday.. how can he be classed as a striker?

He's a forward, not a striker

He's fucking quality and brings other players into the game.

I genuinely believe that, had Sven played Heskey instead of Vassel in that Euro 2004 quarter final, we'd have won the match and very possibly the tournament.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

He's much better at shooting, but he's not as good as Heskey at supporting forward play. This is why Capello, who I think you'll agree knows more than us, employs him over Cole.

Carlton Cole is the league's most improved player, we got an absolute bargain getting him for 2m. Robbery, that was.

 

[chieftain]

aaron lennon, just no.

Brilliant, lol

 

[chieftain]

Jamie Carragher: Dedicated in the tackle yes but positionally he's a rubbish.

and Jenas, he's just so ordinary

 

[The Octagon]

I really don't get the Beckham thing, how can he be over-rated when everyone accepts that he's always been pretty slow and his main threat is his workrate and delivery?

Fact remains he's still the only consistent quality passer / crosser on the right hand side at present for England.

Crouch is brilliant too, that scoring record isn't a fluke (and don't give me the 'lesser teams' bollocks, he never gets enough time against the big boys).

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Who rates Jenas

 

[chieftain]

Who rates Jenas

Juan Ramos

 

[Meltingpot]

No. He was a striker. Slow, unable to read the game, couldn't pass shoot or head the ball, and financially one of the smartest signings Scunny ever made.

I stand corrected.

 

[stupid kid]

if carrick is playing id like to see.

------------Hargreaves------

-----carrick-------- gerrard---------

Rooney--------------------------------Young


------------------C.Cole-----------------


Considering we have attacking fullbacks I reckon it could work.

Although i'd be happier with 442 and defensive(ish) midfielder and gerrard in the centre.


dave

So you'd have Rooney and Johnson on the same flank? Seems a recipe for disaster to me.

I'll be surprised if it's anything other than Cole-Lampard-Barry-Gerrard in midfield, with Rooney behind Heskey up front. Maybe C. Cole or Defoe, but Capello seems to be happy enough with his default set up.

 

[stavros]

Is there a Blue Moon outside?


It does seem to me that a lot of people don't get Carrick because what he does and what he is expected to do isn't so obvious as the likes of a midfield battler like Hargreaves/Fletcher, nor the box to box Roy of the Rovers Gerard and Lampard types. Carricks job is primarily to keep play ticking over, to set the tempo of the game (as Alonso did at Liverpool for quite some time whilst being overlooked by many who couldn't see past Stevie Me) and defensively he isn't about sliding tackles and wrestling for the ball, he's about shielding the back four, blocking off potential passes and runners, some of his best work goes unnoticed precisely because he's shut off a pass or run and the ball doesn't go towards him.

If anyone plays FIFA and knows how to defend by jockeying back covering runs and passes with the player in your control and using the pressure function to make another defender close down the man with the ball they should understand that Carrick is the first player and that's precisely why he needs a good ball winner beside him.

And yes I'm well aware that using FIFA to explain Carrick's qualities in real life probably undermines my argument rather than adding weight to it but it's just something that popped into my head.

I'm too young to have seen Glenn Hoddle's finest years, but I always remember Michel Platini's comment that if he'd be French he'd have got well over a hundred caps. I think similar might apply to Carrick.

 

[Bunjaj Pali]

I'm too young to have seen Glenn Hoddle's finest years, but I always remember Michel Platini's comment that if he'd be French he'd have got well over a hundred caps. I think similar might apply to Carrick.

Right now I think Titus Bramble would be picking up caps if he was French.

 

[kained&able]

So you'd have Rooney and Johnson on the same flank? Seems a recipe for disaster to me.

I'll be surprised if it's anything other than Cole-Lampard-Barry-Gerrard in midfield, with Rooney behind Heskey up front. Maybe C. Cole or Defoe, but Capello seems to be happy enough with his default set up.

I wouldn't do that and would fully expect capello to go 442. But if you want carrick in the team i reckon that is the best way to play.


dave

 

[London_Calling]

Is there a Blue Moon outside?

I was a season ticket holder while Carrick was at WHL and it was just an object lesson every week - imo, he was the main reason we hung onto 4th places until the last week of the season.

It matters that you see players like him live because so much of his contribution isn't just off the ball but out of shot - for example, if the opposition break quickly, I can't think who else I'd prefer to cover angles and occupy space.