Photographer writes excellent letter to the band Garbage about unpaid photo use

Discussion in 'photography, graphics & art' started by editor, Apr 2, 2015.

  1. FridgeMagnet

    FridgeMagnet Administrator

    I think his summary of the general issue is pretty good, and is true in a lot of different areas too.
    Quartz, fishfinger, treefrog and 6 others like this.
  2. pocketscience

    pocketscience Well-Known Member

  3. editor

    editor hiraethified

    Here's the response from US Today:

    I wrote back and asked her is she was being paid for her job and why she thinks I shouldn't be paid for mine.

    (Her mega PR company has some of the biggest global brands on their books, by the way)
    muscovyduck, Greebo, innit and 2 others like this.
  4. Cid

    Cid 嗯嗯

    The Garbage book is probably a vanity project coffee table thumper. You pay for vanity projects.
    muscovyduck, Enviro and editor like this.
  5. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    I've helped many people out on 'vanity' projects (loathe that term - condescending in the extreme). Always did it for nothing as I know how hard it is to avoid losing money, let alone make any.

    It's a question of taking a view on whether or not what they're doing is a good thing - helping out, if you think 'yes'; not helping or charging for your services if you think 'no'.
    muscovyduck likes this.
  6. Santino

    Santino lovelier than lovely

    How many of them were millionaire rock musicians?
    muscovyduck, innit and editor like this.
  7. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model every man and every woman is a star

    yeh. but they don't seem up for paying for the vanity project.
  8. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    None. But then again, neither am I a well-paid celebrity photographer.
  9. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model every man and every woman is a star

    but answer came there none?
  10. Santino

    Santino lovelier than lovely

    Vanity, thy name is woman-fronted rock band.
  11. editor

    editor hiraethified

    She sooooo loved my photos but wanted to "just check" that I wanted to give them away for free to a commercial company I don't give a flying fuck about.
    muscovyduck, Greebo, ddraig and 4 others like this.
  12. Cid

    Cid 嗯嗯

    Possibly when used as a blanket term to describe any form of self publishing, less so when used to describe people who publish things about themselves.
  13. equationgirl

    equationgirl Respect my existence or expect my resistance

    His argument is made in terms everyone can understand, nothing wrong with that.

    Some moral rights such as the right to be identified as the creator of a work (right of paternity) exist for the whole of the copyright term in any case and will survive an assignment of copyright.
    Greebo likes this.
  14. equationgirl

    equationgirl Respect my existence or expect my resistance

    Unless it's the intern made to do it...
    Greebo and ViolentPanda like this.
  15. Diamond

    Diamond The Red Baron

    Of course they'd survive an assignment of the copyright - they're separate but related rights and it would be impossible to assign the moral right in any event.

    It would be also a very strange situation in which you wouldn't want the moral right to attach to the work - if you had paid a lot of money for a piece of work, you'd probably want to attribute it to the author

    Nonetheless, moral rights, like most property rights can be explicitly waived. It's easy to imagine a legal scenario in which you would pair an assignment of copyright with a waiver of the attached moral rights - that would be very easy to draft - however I'm not sure why the assignee would want that.

    I struggle to imagine such a situation, although I suppose it does happen...
  16. laptop

    laptop Freudenschade

    Moral rights aren't strictly a property right...

    Anyways, far too many commercial clients demand that everyone waives their moral rights. Even when they don't exist in the first place (e.g. work "for the purpose of reporting news and current affairs".)


    Because they can demand it.
  17. Diamond

    Diamond The Red Baron

    I see your point but I'd disagree, they are proprietorial in the sense that they rely on an underlying proprietorial IP right.

    Although they can't be exchanged, they must be waived if they are not to attach to the copyright. So, yes, a bit of an odd one.

    Or to put it another way - you can't buy them but you can give them up, as far as I understand.
  18. weltweit

    weltweit Well-Known Member

    I imagine it is getting harder to get paid for images these days with the massive increase of amateur photographers and now vast amounts of digital images online in places like Flickr.
  19. Stanley Edwards

    Stanley Edwards 1967 Maserati Mistral. R.I.P.

    Only just caught up with this thread. You're right of course, but very importantly, the photographs talked about in the OP were as important to the success of Carbage as any video. If you want photographs to do proper business, you fucking well have to pay the photographer for their skills and experience as much as you expect fans to pay for your book.
    muscovyduck and Quartz like this.
  20. starfish2000

    starfish2000 Well-Known Member

    Garbage just look like Cunt's now. Trying to intellectualise the theft of IP is always a bad idea.
  21. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    No it's not. Ip can be and is abused by very rich and powerful people too. Sometimes stealing ip is the right thing to do. Not in this case (although they didn't steal it), but your generalised statement isn't true at all.
  22. starfish2000

    starfish2000 Well-Known Member

    Generalised statement? Name examples of ip theft & their benefit to mankind. With a pie chart please.

    Then give me your house.
  23. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Capitalism throws up all
    kinds of examples of abuses of ip by the rich and powerful. Gm crops, lifesaving drugs. That kind of thing. Often based on massively dubious assertions whereby accummulated social knowledge goes totally unpaid - 'stolen'by the companies.
  24. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    And for an example purely from the narrow field of the arts i give you Disney. They are cunts. Good luck to anyone who 'steals' from them.
  25. editor

    editor hiraethified

  26. Voley

    Voley Ramoner

    I love that. This is the highlight for me:

    What the fuck is your point? Are you going to do the logo and charts for me or not?
    From: David Thorne
    Date: Tuesday 17 November 2009 5.02pm
    To: Simon Edhouse
    Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Logo Design

  27. paul russell999

    paul russell999 Well-Known Member

    I've noticed that the number of times a company says they "love your work" is inversely proportion to the probability that they are willing to pay for it when it comes to photography.
  28. Sasaferrato

    Sasaferrato Grateful for what I have.

    I once had one of my photographs published on the front page of a national newspaper, without either payment or credit. However, the circumstances which engendered the use of the photo were absolutely dreadful for the family concerned. It was a picture of their son in his kart, (he had been Scottish Junior Champion) and sadly he died from a heroin overdose. Had I been asked I would have agreed, even to relinquishing the copyright.

    It was ironic though, it was probably the only photo I'll ever have published. I don't take photos for a living though, and that is the difference.
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
  29. Sasaferrato

    Sasaferrato Grateful for what I have.

    Depends how you look at it. I'm an amateur photographer with a little skill. If someone wants to use any of my photos for any purpose, they are welcome to do so, provided they ask of course. There is one website that uses four of my pictures, and I'm chuffed that they chose my photos. The emphasis is amateur of course, my pictures have no commercial value, because I do it as a hobby.
  30. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model every man and every woman is a star

    because you set no value on them: you should do, other people will.

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