Photographer writes excellent letter to the band Garbage about unpaid photo use

Discussion in 'photography, graphics & art' started by editor, Apr 2, 2015.

  1. editor

    editor hiraethified

    Perhaps they pay him and aren't in the habit of using his work without permission, payment or credit.
     
    Greebo likes this.
  2. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    I don't think anyone's defending that, though. And he's right to be pissed off that they used an image without permission on an album. Presumably he will have followed that up with a letter and received a cheque. He should have done.

    But if someone writes to you like this, don't you first write back stating your fee for the proposed use?
     
    Greebo and Spymaster like this.
  3. editor

    editor hiraethified

    Not if they already have history for using my work for commercial projects without permission, payment or credit.
     
    Greebo, Fez909 and muscovyduck like this.
  4. gabi

    gabi Banned Banned

    Where's the contract?
     
  5. Orang Utan

    Orang Utan knows how to use the three shells

    why bother if they're not going to pay you? they've already stated they wouldn't. why do you care that he's been a bit bolshy about it? he's exposed Garbage as a bunch of chancers. Good on him.
     
    Greebo likes this.
  6. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Setting aside rights and wrongs, sometimes if you don't ask you don't get. I'm sure he knows that very well. And again, setting aside rights and wrongs, that works both ways.

    His own website is itself testament to that. He will need model release forms from the likes of Bowie etc to use their images on his website. I presume he asked them for this - 'do you mind if I put this photo on my website?' - and they said yes.
     
  7. twentythreedom

    twentythreedom Patterdale Terrorist R.I.P.

    I wonder who else working on the book project is being asked to do it for free
     
  8. Miss Caphat

    Miss Caphat I want it that way

    so he could afford to say what he was actually thinking, and make people think next time before they make assumptions and insult artists by offering them "credit" or "exposure"
    Good for him.
     
  9. editor

    editor hiraethified

    Desperate argument is desperate.
     
  10. Chilli.s

    Chilli.s changed the little words

    IMHO a bit lame not to pay some sort of amount, even if just a token payment. Without some detail of initial contract, hard to judge.
     
  11. Spymaster

    Spymaster Cockney Wanker

    Childish.

    Sounds like your friends learned their business skills from the same cornflake packet that Mr Pope did. Most of mine very rarely get ripped off, are able to negotiate without spitting their dummies, and usually get paid within their contract terms.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2015
  12. Spymaster

    Spymaster Cockney Wanker

    No they didn't.
     
  13. Spymaster

    Spymaster Cockney Wanker

    Probably everyone who isn't contracted otherwise.
     
    twentythreedom likes this.
  14. weltweit

    weltweit Well-Known Member

    I think the photographer was right not to offer his image for free, he also has to make a living and paying for a photo-shoot does not usually confer all image rights in perpetuity. I am less certain about his taking it public, it could backfire on him rather like someone taking an employer to court can.
     
  15. twentythreedom

    twentythreedom Patterdale Terrorist R.I.P.

    Any clue what kind of roles will be non-contracted? Just wondering how widespread this is
     
  16. bi0boy

    bi0boy Power User

    They said the book wouldn't make much money from sales. So why not offer every contributor a share of the profits, a royalty payment?

    Then this photographer will see how just many people are willing to fork out for his oh-so-amazing pictars. If he's right and they're worth something he should make a bomb.
     
    muscovyduck likes this.
  17. bi0boy

    bi0boy Power User

    Just because you spend time doing something doesn't mean you're entitled to earn a living out of it.
     
  18. editor

    editor hiraethified

    Unless you're a professional photographer of course. Then it's your job and you have every right to expect to be paid if your work is used in commercial projects.
     
    Greebo and muscovyduck like this.
  19. Belushi

    Belushi 01 811 8055 R.I.P.

    I bet garbage would disagree with you when it comes to people downloading their music for free.
     
  20. Cheesypoof

    Cheesypoof Fuck off Noddy Banned

    i think the photographer is within his rights to refuse, and you know, 'out' Garbage. It is annoying if they are millionares not to want to pay him, but they probably thought they'd chance their arm...
     
    Miss Caphat and muscovyduck like this.
  21. bi0boy

    bi0boy Power User

    But it wasn't though. They asked him if they could use it and he refused, because he thought it was worth more than they were prepared to pay. I wonder if anyone else will pay for it now.
     
    maomao likes this.
  22. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    No, you're entitled to control over how your work is used, though. In the case of photos, you're entitled to say when they can and cannot be used, unless you've sold that right to someone else or otherwise foresworn it by releasing the work on a free licence of some kind.

    But I think you're also entitled to ask politely for the use of work without necessarily offering payment. Anyone who's self-published knows how expensive it is and how difficult it is to make money out of it. I don't think Garbage are necessarily lying when they say that they don't expect this book to make them much, if any, money.

    Then it's up to the person in question to either refuse permission or to ask for some arrangement, whether an upfront payment or something else.
     
    Spymaster likes this.
  23. bi0boy

    bi0boy Power User

    The photographer exercised that right here - I don't see the problem. He is whingeing not because they used it for free in their book, but because they didn't think it worth paying him for. Maybe his photos are shit.
     
  24. Cheesypoof

    Cheesypoof Fuck off Noddy Banned

    agree - while i think asking for the pics for free was shabby, at least the band asked first. I am surprised that they claim to not be in a financial position to pay though....
     
  25. Spymaster

    Spymaster Cockney Wanker

    There's nothing shabby about trying to negotiate the best deal possible. Shabby would have been using the work without asking.

    Shabby is also plastering a rant on Facebook without giving the other chap a chance pay a fee.
     
  26. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    I don't completely agree. If they are doing something that they hope will make them a lot of money, then it is shabby not to offer payment. I don't think it's ok to underpay people just because you can.

    But as someone who has self-published, I can well believe that they won't make anything out of this book. It will cost a lot to print, and they won't get good deals from bookshops/Amazon. You don't generally self-publish to make money. You do it to get something you think is worthwhile out into the world.
     
    Cheesypoof likes this.
  27. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    TBF, you need to ponder the difference between the electronic and the physical reproduction of the picture. Generally the latter is reproduction as an artefact or in an artefact for sale while the former generates no money. It's also likely that his contracts are written to solicit limited use rights (i.e. on his website) from his clients.
     
    ddraig and Greebo like this.
  28. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    The problem with allowing free use to individuals or organisations that appear to have the ability to pay, is that allowing free use will perpetuate this blagging, and even cause more people to try it on. I'm glad he went public. Not on the basis that I think he's either wrong or right in this instance, but because business needs to learn not to blag.
     
    ebonics, Chilli.s, salem and 4 others like this.
  29. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    I suspect that, given Garbage's output and Ms Manson's pretensions, this book is going to be of the coffee table/art-book type, which would explain the "there's not much money in it" claim - high-quality repro is expensive.
    Even so, as you say, promising contributors a smidgen of a percent on sales would be a good way of paying something for the use of contributions, and needn't be expensive, especially if you acknowledge those contributors in a dedication at the front of the book.
     
    Spymaster, Cheesypoof and Greebo like this.
  30. Orang Utan

    Orang Utan knows how to use the three shells

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