Phillips - 'Racial ghettos may appear in UK'

[poster342002]

And in the meantime? We allow thousands of christian schools to continue and oppose any new muslim ones?

We take the principled position of being against the whole lot.

 

[poster342002]

As well as thousands of christian schools by the way, there are also two CoE Universities (University of Gloucestershire and Roehampton University), and about 50 church colleges in both the FE and HE sector. All are publicly funded and regulated (to an extent), so the CPGB are wrong to say 'Bring the Church Schools into the State Sector' - they are already part of the state system but with important distinctions.

Well, I'd say bring them into the state system and force them to drop the religious element. All of them - whatever denomination.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

We take the principled position of being against the whole lot.

Well bully for you. Now go and sit in front of a group of muslim parents and explain why they can't have any schools of their own, but the nearly 7,000 CofE and RC schools that their children are excluded from will be abolished come the revolution.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Well, I'd say bring them into the state system and force them to drop the religious element. All of them - whatever denomination.

I agree - and that should be part of a programme for a radical government of the left.

But if you are a local authority councillor or school governor in the here and now and a proposal for a muslim school to be state supported comes before you next week, you presumably turn it down until the glorious day when a secular state can be enacted in parliamentary legislation?

This line of argument reminds me of the sect who used to oppose trade unions demanding wage rises, on the grounds that communists were against money!

 

[poster342002]

Well bully for you. Now go and sit in front of a group of muslim parents and explain why they can't have any schools of their own, but the nearly 7,000 CofE and RC schools that their children are excluded from will be abolished come the revolution.

TBH, I would not even enter an absurd, dead-end debate that can only end up with abandonment of principles to start with.

 

[poster342002]

But if you are a local authority councillor or school governor in the here and now and a proposal for a muslim school to be state supported comes before you next week, you presumably turn it down until the glorious day when a secular state can be enacted in parliamentary legislation?

Two answers spring to mind...

1 I would not wish to hold an establishment office to start with - be it cllr or MP. (yeah, yeah - whinging from the sidelines yadda yadda. Yawn).

2 If I was, I'd refuse to even enter such a dicussion (as my post above says).

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Two answers spring to mind...

1 I would not wish to hold an establishment office to start with - be it cllr or MP. (yeah, yeah - whinging from the sidelines yadda yadda. Yawn).

2 If I was, I'd refuse to even enter such a dicussion (as my post above says).

I feel duly humbled at your ability to ignore the real world that the rest of us have to inhabit. I'm glad you can sleep at night without worrying about whether something you could have done might make a difference.

 

[poster342002]

I feel duly humbled at your ability to ignore the real world that the rest of us have to inhabit. I'm glad you can sleep at night without worrying about whether something you could have done might make a difference.

I am actually only too aware of the "real world", having to deal on a daily basis with the crap it throws at working class people such as myself - which is probably more than a lot of middle-class pseudo-lefitists can say (though it won't stop them). Secondly, I don't subscribe to the notion of "something must be done. This is something, so let's do this".

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I am actually only too aware of the "real world", having to deal on a daily basis with the crap it throws at working class people such as myself - which is probably more than a lot of middle-class pseudo-lefitists can say (though it won't stop them). Secondly, I don't subscribe to the notion of "something must be done. This is something, so let's do this".

And so you refuse to enter into a discussion instead ...

(By the way I have just as working class a background as those who choose to label people 'middle class pseudo-leftists'. That's one reason I want to do something about it. And I don't subscribe to the notion that anything, no matter what, will do either.)

 

[durruti02]

Gary Younge has something to say about integration:

Full article

gary younge is either an idiot or bing deceitfull with stats .. he makes a marked point that non-white people are twice as likely to have white friends as the other way around .. hence whites are bad/racist

idiot .. it is bleedin obvious that many white people have no opportunity of having non white friends living in Bude or the orkneys or Bangor or wherever .. and that conversely non white people USUALLY live in areas that are mixed ..

for what it is worth , when this is taken into account non white people are less likely to choose white friends then the other way around .. of course historical racism needs to be taken into account , but in my view th british white working class has been ( looked at from a global perspective) not very racist at all

so what is gary younges angle .. is he racist??

personally i think if i want to live in a country i must to a large extent accept the values of that country and yes integrate .. if my culture is incompatable with that country ( or a significant minority e.g. just say i wanted to move to the states!!) i think i should leave and go elsewhere ..

it always fascinates me that people who would not allow a sexist racist south african into their house share or let a load of rude boys crash their party will demand that w/c communities should take whatever capitalism gives them and accuse them of racism if there are any problems

 

[durruti02]

Well bully for you. Now go and sit in front of a group of muslim parents and explain why they can't have any schools of their own, but the nearly 7,000 CofE and RC schools that their children are excluded from will be abolished come the revolution.

because , as you know as yo are agianst them in principle, it will make things worse

i think there is also a qualitive difference between coe scools and the rest .. rc probably fairly ordinary too but the new generation of relegious schools ( NOT JUST MUSLIM BUT xtian TOO) are usually very relegious and people of differrent relegions could not attend ..

 

[likesfish]

the uncomfatable fact is C of E schools are very popular leading to mostly middle class pretending to got to church etc to get a place

 

[exosculate]

Integration through segregation is clearly the way forward.

 

[cockneyrebel]

personally i think if i want to live in a country i must to a large extent accept the values of that country and yes integrate ...

Wouldn't that mean that socialists should leave the UK, or indeed virtually any country they live in. Indeed where should socialists move to?

I think GY makes a good point when he says:

Take the American south. Despite preaching segregation in his presidential campaign, the late South Carolina senator Strom Thurmond still slept with black women, like most white southern gentlemen. Black women breastfed and raised white children, and since most slave owners were not that wealthy, many black and white families shared the same roof.

The question was not whether the races could mix but what were the ground-rules for them mixing. These relationships were not consensual or mutual but usually coerced and one-sided. The whites-only signs kept African Americans from many a public place; but in the most intimate parts of their lives, black and white people were as integrated as they possibly could be.

In other words, the value of integration is contingent on whom you are asking to integrate, what you are asking them to integrate into and on what basis you are asking them to do so.

And the fact is that even in cities races remain totally divided.


Also durutti while you make some valid points about large parts of the country being 99% white, this poll is surely more worrying:

A Mori poll for Prospect magazine last year showed that 41% of whites, compared with 26% of ethnic minorities, want the races to live separately.

And to be fair to GY he does say:

Britain has a great many qualities where race is concerned.

As well as stating that it is inequality (i.e. class) that is the underlying issue that needs to be resolved.

 

[tbaldwin]

so what is gary younges angle .. is he racist??

Interesting point,not too sure,if he should be described as a racist..
But he is a twat who appeals to the prejudice of white liberals who want to feel superior to the uneducated masses.
Whether he actually believes the nonsense he comes out with is anyones guess. But media commentators are paid to be safely controversial whether they write for the scummy Daily Mail or wanky Guardian.

 

[cockneyrebel]

But he is a twat who appeals to the prejudice of white liberals who want to feel superior to the uneducated masses.

Some of the points in the linked article are valid, and he is better than a lot of liberal commentators. At least he talks about materical inequality and class.

 

[tbaldwin]

Some of the points in the linked article are valid, and he is better than a lot of liberal commentators. At least he talks about materical inequality and class.

Oh OK then, he appeals to Lefter Liberals.

 

[tobyjug]

I am a bit puzzled by statement:- Racial ghettos may appear in Britain.
There have been racial ghettos for a long time now.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I am a bit puzzled by statement:- Racial ghettos may appear in Britain.
There have been racial ghettos for a long time now.

Maybe white people just didn't see them as being there.

 

[tobyjug]

Maybe white people just didn't see them as being there.

Maybe the government and chattering classes didn't see them. They were/are all to obvious to many ordinary people.

 

[Pickman's model]

these racial ghettos, tobyjug - d'you mean places like golders green and havering?

 

[tobyjug]

these racial ghettos, tobyjug - d'you mean places like golders green and havering?

I have no knowledge of either. I was thinking more along the line of parts of Bradford, Leeds, London, and where my relatives live in High Wycombe where some streets are more or less racially exclusive and getting more so as the elderly white people who are left die off and the young whites move away.

 

[Pickman's model]

ah.

 

[newbie]

which bits of London?

 

[tobyjug]

which bits of London?

I think you will find the racism finder general (Trevor Phillips) has them detailed on the CRE website. The areas have been quoted on TV new and current affairs programs this week. I also expect they will be detailed in Trevor's much publicised speech tomorrow.
I would expect some parts of Southhall and the Brick Lane area to feature in the stats.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Gary Younge makes the point that you never hear people talking about ghettoes when they're talking about all white areas.

Downham in Lewisham could well be described as a white ghetto, but never is.

 

[tobyjug]

Gary Younge makes the point that you never hear people talking about ghettoes when they're talking about all white areas.

Downham in Lewisham could well be described as a white ghetto, but never is.

It is rather difficult for the white indigenous population to live in a ghetto as form the majority of the population.
However one could argue that there are white ghettos based on class.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Gary Younge makes the point that you never hear people talking about ghettoes when they're talking about all white areas.

Downham in Lewisham could well be described as a white ghetto, but never is.

Downham ward in Lewisham is only 75% white british.

Ward with the highest proportion of White British in the country is:

Edward ward in Berwick-upon-Tweed, Northumberland

where of the 1,738 people in census 2001, 99.65%, all bar six, were white british - three of them said they were 'other white' (eg east european) and three were asian. Most of the wards with % white british above 99% are in Cumbria, Northumberland or County Durham.

London ward with the highest proportion of White British is Cranham ward in Havering (94.78% white british). Havering, Bromley and Bexley have a number of wards above 90% white british.

Easington in Co Durham is the district with the highest proportion of white british at 98.8%. In London it is Bexley at 87.68%

 

[durruti02]

Cr your reply about whites wanting people to live seperate is the same a what GY is saying .. when most white people live in white areas it is really not suprising they say this .. it is the same misunderstanding of the stats as GY has done

 

[hibee]

Gary Younge makes the point that you never hear people talking about ghettoes when they're talking about all white areas.

Downham in Lewisham could well be described as a white ghetto, but never is.

I'm not sure that's true. Whenever Eltham is mentioned in relation to race (re: Lawrence) it is always said how white it is. Likewise when the BNP were pushing ahead in places like Dagenham and Becontree the whiteness of the areas was always an issue.

And it's pretty obvious that white ghettoes in a place like London are much more noteworthy than many rural areas which don't have much in the way of employment etc to attract significant numbers of immigrants in the first place.