butcher
boner at the ready
Today he would have to employ an IT specialist......
Philip Larkin , what an arsehole.
- Thread starter mystic pyjamas
- Start date
Today he would have to employ an IT specialist......
hitmouse
God laid a big egg in my heart to tell you this
Aye, that's fair enough. I think Genet's the only one of those I've read, but could definitely add Bukowski to that list, arguably Roth as well. Celine is one where from what I've heard, I imagine I might really like his work, but at the same time from what I know about the man I've just reached the point of deciding... life's short, I'm never going to read everything I want to read, and I'm not going to prioritise reading Celine over like, literally anyone who's not Celine.
I spose the question of how far unpublished work and diaries are fair game is an interesting one as well. On one hand it's like harder to defend because that line of persona isn't really there in the same way, like someone writing a work of art with a racist line might be doing all kinds of things with all kinds of intentions, but someone complaining to their mate that there's too many black people at cricket matches seems quite a bit more straightforward. On the other hand, I suppose the question of how much it's our business comes up - like, I definitely don't think I'd want to be mates with Larkin, but at this stage that seems like it's not going to happen anyway. Idk, I'm trying to not be hypocritical here, and I know I've felt vaguely defensive towards both Woolf and Plath when arguments have come up that also seemed to be mostly based on diaries and unpublished stuff.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Pam Ayers is a former member of the British Secret Services, who spent five years as an agent based in Singapore; so, won't be in the loft but on a encoded on a microdot in plain view in her lounge. It will also be protected by the Official Secrets Act. She can sever a cartoid artery with those teeth.
A cunning and clinical assassin; not a sexually frustrated librarian.
billy_bob
Air of bewilderment model's own
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Obligatory 'if you like Bukowski, you'll love Fante' post.
I came to Fante via Bukowski, who, well, never stops banging on about him. Wait Until Spring, Bandini is the best book about a teenage boy growing up that I've ever read.
butcher
boner at the ready
That's a disappointment I though that "Philip Larkin , what an arsehole" was one of his lesser known poems that I hadn't read
Enraged, he inserted his boot clad foot
Up to the metatarsal
And as the poet squealed in shock
He chuckled in his ear
Philip Larkin , what an arsehole
That's a disappointment I though that "Philip Larkin , what an arsehole" was one of his lesser known poems that I hadn't read
I've compiled a poem from snippets of quotes found in this thread.
Philip Larkin, What an Arsehole
Larkin was a bit of a cock,
It shouldn't come as a surprise
To anyone,
He was rotten,
Horrible horrible man
He was a reactionary shit
Who explored aspects of himself
In poetry
There is a line of writers
Exploring their own shitness
Embarrassing politically, bitter and twisted,
Like an olden day Morrissey
He used most of his racist abuse
In private letters to friends
So it certainly wasn't
A public persona
A porn fiend
He had an arrangement with his solicitor
To have his considerable collection
Removed from his house
When he died
Two big boxes of it
He didn't even have a friend to do it
He had to pay someone
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Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Why not? I didn't know. People know different stuff
Get his Collected Poems - you'll find few better from the 20th century.
Maybe he was a shit, maybe he wasn't, but trashing his work because of his personal views rather misses the point of art altogether. The attitude is a modern thing, very much in fashion, and wholly negative in its effects.
In the meantime, here's a favourite of mine from his earlier poems:
A very, very basic point here - morality is a variable, not a constant.
It changes over time from era to era.
This vogue for doing a number on long dead artists because they don't conform to how you expect you and your friends to behave now will eventually lead to the more or less total rejection of huge swathes of past culture. And further, if you set that train in motion, it will simply do the same to your current idols in fairly short order. It's a barbaric attitude.
It changes over time from era to era.
This vogue for doing a number on long dead artists because they don't conform to how you expect you and your friends to behave now will eventually lead to the more or less total rejection of huge swathes of past culture. And further, if you set that train in motion, it will simply do the same to your current idols in fairly short order. It's a barbaric attitude.
I can appreciate some of Larkin's work, while at the same time being very much aware that he was a vile, bigoted arsehole.
But what can you expect from a man who was taken to the Nuremburg rally by his Dad?
But what can you expect from a man who was taken to the Nuremburg rally by his Dad?
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
all quotations are selective. that's what quotes are.
hitmouse
God laid a big egg in my heart to tell you this
Tbf, the op of this thread is mostly just one of his poems. I think it's reasonable enough if people want to slag his poems off on the grounds that they don't like his poems. I'm wishy-washy and go back and forth on this stuff (so much so that I forgot about this thread and started a whole new one to be indecisive about this stuff on), but to me it sort of seems like it's missing the point of art to argue as though it can be separated from his personal views altogether. Maybe it's one thing if someone's just painting pictures of flowers or squares or something (am open to being corrected on this point by someone who understands more about paintings of flowers than I do), but surely a lot of the point of poetry, especially poetry like Larkin's, is precisely to express a certain way of seeing the world?
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
and what will you do for your next trick?
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
i think what you're driving at is that if the views expressed in (for example) the famous they fuck you up poem were put in the mouth of a character in a play or a novel you might be able to argue that it's a point of view and not necessarily one that the author holds, but when there is no fictional intermediary then it's hard to see any other possible reading other than 'the views expressed here are the author's views'
Do you read much poetry?
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
a sight more than you do, i suspect. much of the poetry i've read i read for an english degree: but the views expressed here are my own and not some lecturer's rewarmed notions.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I found Larkin's book of jazz reviews in a charity shop a while back. It's all the pieces he wrote for the Daily Telegraph from 1961-1971.
He is a great writer, but very grumpy. It's an interesting book because he mainly hates the jazz that I like - modern / hard bop etc onwards.
In the foreword to the book he makes the point that, in contradiction to the reviews, he now quite likes Charlie Parker, because he now sounds better than what followed him. Pretty much the definition of a conservative with a small "c".
He is a great writer, but very grumpy. It's an interesting book because he mainly hates the jazz that I like - modern / hard bop etc onwards.
In the foreword to the book he makes the point that, in contradiction to the reviews, he now quite likes Charlie Parker, because he now sounds better than what followed him. Pretty much the definition of a conservative with a small "c".
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
How can you not laugh, reading that? It's great!
Idris2002
Stay Alive in '25
Laughably shit. Coltrane, dreary? You're right, it is to laugh.
How can you not laugh, reading that? It's great!
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
Sure, I mean it is just his opinion, and it is at variance with mine. But he has at least taken the trouble to write that passage in an entertaining fashion.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
His Dad apparently attended some of the rallies but not with Philip. Their visits happened later.
Bit unnecessary
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