Peter Tatchell...

[dennisr]

Mmm, having spoken to a fair few gay socialists who were active at the time, your experience was far from typical.

My 'experience' was on a huge working class estate (one of the biggest in the UK - they simply forgot to build enough factories - so an unemployment blackspot) just outside of Portsmouth - not the most enlightened or bohemian area (think the attitiude of 'millwall' 20 years ago - and still) - the LPYS initiated the sucessful national anti-YTS school strike from there (coming out of a teachers strike at the time in which the old NF tried to interveine among school kids striking - Glasgow, then national, followed Pompeys lead). We were also the first LPYS to be closed down by the LP (the excuse being over a miner support punk gig that got a little excitable). The LPYS had over 100 members and the local scooter club affiliated - average age was 15-16. it was a typical working class experience during the miners strike. The LGBT issue was pushed specifically because some of those around us had come out with prejudiced rubbish which had to be politically quashed - not because we considered such issues 'right-on' to discuss for the sake of it

 

[Nigel]

Your experiences in the LPYS seem to be better than many, in Crawley, Sussex they did their best to sabotage any initiative put forward for activity and witchunt 'subversives'.

 

[Nigel]

That would have been utterly unimaginable in Bristol at the time. I do not mean that the Millies there showed no sign of having discussed the question. On the contrary, they showed every sign of having been briefed against the 'petit bourgeois' 'ultra left' 'not part of the Labour Movement' view. They would have no truck with gay liberation. The people whose views they objected to obviously included the Social Workers and other sects (of which more in a moment), but also many ordinary Labour Party left-wingers and 'non-aligned' socialists.

The line the Millies I argued with took was a weird pseudo-Marxist load of bonkers twaddle. Homosexuality was not a working class phenomenon. It was something found among the petit bourgeois and would disappear under socialism.

These are the ideas that more recently have been propounded by the Tanky sect run by Royston Bull.

The worst that I knew of went beyond spouting pseudo-Marxist anti-gay rubbish. One young man I knew in the LPYS had two bad points, from the point of view of the Millies, who, as you know, dominated the LPYS in those days: (1) he was a member (or, like you, a "supporter") of what was then called Socialist Organiser (now the AWL) and (2) he was gay. At a West Country LPYS camp, he came in for a bit of stick (figuratively) for these two failings and he went to bed rather earlier than many other people. He was woken by a group of drunken Millies standing around his bed pissing on him! No, that's not figurative or in any way an exaggeration. They pissed on him.



I don't know what you really believe, but I do know this much: Trots, given half a chance, protest against Stalinist airbrushing. Good. I'm against attempts to airbrush the Millies anti-gay nonsense.

The events I've described were more than a quarter of a century ago, and I do not bear grudges against people just for having been young foolish and Trot all that time ago, but I insist on telling it as it was.

Regarding the Millies and homophobia, are you sure that this was not just SWP and/or other groups who were more involved in Lesbian/Gay support just slandering and shit stirring for their own sectarian ends?

 

[dennisr]

Your experiences in the LPYS seem to be better than many, in Crawley, Sussex they did their best to sabotage any initiative put forward for activity and witchunt 'subversives'.

Unexplained slander from Nigel about the hotbed that was crawley - there's a surprise...

Its a bit cheeky accusing JHE of the same in your next post

 

[Nigel]

Unexplained slander from Nigel about the hotbed that was crawley - there's a surprise...

Its a bit cheeky accusing JHE of the same in your next post

I wasn't slandering anyone, in fact I was pointing out the victimisation of Trotskyist groups by 'moderates' in the Labour Party. The Millies were never around the LPYS in that neck of the woods nearest possibly being Brighton, but some break off from the old IMG called REVOLUTION did try to make some initiative.

As far as Crawley goes at that time there was quite a bit of industrial action mainly around the closing of big industrial factories and redundencies namely APV, support for Nurses during COHSE dispute was a major issue, managed to collect over thirty pounds for campaign around local estate.

 

[Nigel]

Sorry I see where you got that idea, the 'they' I meant was established Labour Party in that area.

 

[Nigel]

Carrying on from Tatchells background, did anyone ever meet the Salters(think thats right) who are mentioned in Battle For Bermondsey, who inspired and influenced Tatchell in grass root politics?

 

[Streathamite]

Carrying on from Tatchells background, did anyone ever meet the Salters(think thats right) who are mentioned in Battle For Bermondsey, who inspired and influenced Tatchell in grass root politics?

blimey Nigel, we'd need to be about 70! when I was in Greenwich CLP, I met an old bloke who'd been first inspired to get active by alf salter. I'm also told that the stone inscription above walworth library door "the people's health is the highest law" which is a cicero quote but I'm told dr salter got it put there.

 

[Nigel]

I didn't think it was very likely, thanks for the info. though.

 

[dennisr]

Sorry I see where you got that idea, the 'they' I meant was established Labour Party in that area.

okey dokey

 

[In Bloom]

The smaller groupings in the LPYS had this (and anti-black sections position) as their raison-d-etre - their stick to beat us with. Its all they had, and just about all they ever raised at the LPYS conferences - so painted a very distorted picture. I am sure you would find this colours their re-collections even now. As I am sure you will find a few of the idiots around us reflecting wider societies prejudices - also reflecting the wide base of support we had than the rest of the left. How else were such ideas to be countered - through class politics or through tokenism?

Ideas have to be fought for and were within our own organisation. LGBT members of that organisation played the key role in changing older prejudices. The origin of the 'petty-bourg deviation' idea went along with the old leadership of the party - with Ted Grant specifically. It was a product of its time and the generation of the folk spouting such rubbish - It was never 'acceptable' to the entire organisation. But - I will repeat - the Militant was never actively homophobic. The Militant/SP LGBT Pamphlets are among our biggest sellers. We have a very active LGBT section. We have a solid history of probably 20 years now raising gay rights in a manner no-one here would find less than examplary. Usually the biggest left group visible at pride events - including both LGBT and non-LGBT members.

I don't think I ever said that Millitant or the SP were ever "actively homophobic" (not that being "passively homophobic" would be much better), and I'm not saying any of this to attack the Millitant (or its descendants and fellow travellers ) specifically.

I just think it's important to bear in mind that there was a period when a lot of left groups were a bit shit about LGBT issues and that, as you say, this was something that LGBT people within those organisations had to organise to rectify.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Labour stalwart (ex Labour now) Arthur Latham was in the top three running for the Labour candidacy in Bermondsey but obviously lost out to Tatchell. He always insists that if he had been the candidate then Labour would have run. And he's probably right.

There was some interesting stuff on the Wikipedia entry about comments from Raving Lord Sutch's autobiography that Tatchell didn't actually put any effort into the campaign and just turned up for the occasional press conference presuming that he's win because it was a safe Labour seat.