Permanent Revolution 2008 Event 27-29 June

[butchersapron]

Yep, it keeps them pure and away from people whose concerns are beneath people like them who dream of Ramallah. It's why depsite everything the labour party has 200 000 members and the combined left under 10 000. They don't want to understand. They work hard not to understand.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Yep, it keeps them pure and away from people whose concerns are beneath people like them who dream of Ramallah. It's why depsite everything the labour party has 200 000 members and the combined left under 10 000. They don't want to understand. They work hard not to understand.

I think this is totally over simplified. But instead of concentrating on what is wrong with an ever dwindling far left why don't you concentrate on positive alternatives?

What do you do and what do you suggest can be done to build a pro-working class alternative. I've seen you praise the IWCA before but they seem to be floundering.

 

[Kaye]

That poster already looks dated, what people are now concerned about is rising prices, rising unemployment, crime, the NHS, education and yes, mass migration, will these be on the agenda.

This is true.

 

[butchersapron]

I think this is totally over simplified. But instead of concentrating on what is wrong with an ever dwindling far left why don't you concentrate on positive alternatives?

What do you do and what do you suggest can be done to build a pro-working class alternative. I've seen you praise the IWCA before but they seem to be floundering.

Oh god.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Another sarcastic/negative answer. That's all you do. You seem to get angry whenever you talk about the far left but I can't see why.

As you've said they are an irrelevance to most people, so why concentrate on them all the time? What to you suggest as a positive alternative?

 

[Das Uberdog]

It's just angry because it's beaten, Cocker-lad. Lashing out at any helpless old passer-Trot.

 

[butchersapron]

Which way will cockers jump?

 

[cockneyrebel]

Which way will cockers jump?

If you don't feel you know any positive alternatives why don't just try and relax rather than working yourself up about something that is irrelevant.

Have a beer, put your feet up, do some gardening, go out to a bar.......

 

[butchersapron]

I can't. I'm utterly obsessed - as evidenced by my 3 or 4 frothing posts on this thread.

 

[Das Uberdog]

He's a maniac.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

That poster already looks dated, what people are now concerned about is rising prices, rising unemployment, crime, the NHS, education and yes, mass migration, will these be on the agenda.

Assuming that this is a reference to the poster I put up, the four Themes of the Convention of the Left are:

* Planet

* People not Profit

* Peace

* Democracy and Participation

If you have a view about these themes then you can post on the Convention blog at:

http://conventionoftheleft.org.uk/2008/02/27/themes-of-the-convention-of-the-left/

 

[cockneyrebel]

I can't. I'm utterly obsessed - as evidenced by my 3 or 4 frothing posts on this thread.

It's probably more like 3 or 400 posts on different threads, at least. It's all about breaking with behaviour patterns, it might be hard at first but next time you feel anger rising inside you about the far left instead of posting go and plant something in the garden or take a cold beer from the fridge.

 

[Squatticus]

That poster already looks dated, what people are now concerned about is rising prices, rising unemployment, crime, the NHS, education and yes, mass migration, will these be on the agenda.

Er, don't most of those come under 'people not profit'?

 

[belboid]

shhh, don't point out the obvious contradictions in treelovers posts, or you'll never have anything else to do

 

[The39thStep]

PR aren't part of the Labour Party and support democratising the funds in the trade unions so other initiatives can be supported and pro-working class candidtates supported. People in my union branch are debating about trying to stand "public services, not private profit" candidates.

You advocate voting New Labour.

 

[cockneyrebel]

You advocate voting New Labour.

And you go around web boards trying to wind people up. As that old show said, go out there and do something better instead Chuck.

 

[butchersapron]

That's not what it said at all.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Just to say that Jack Heyman from the US longshoremen’s union ILWU will also be speaking at the event. They recently had a one day strike against the wars in Iraqs and Afghanistan. See here:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=250416

 

[Jean-Luc]

And the GLA was not a humiliating defeat. Respect won two wards in the City and East constituency and would have won three other wards were it not for Left List standing. Not bad, but could do better. The GLA list result was not brilliant, but it was not humiliating either. There's plenty more mileage left, and Respect are well placed to do well in the Tower Hamlets and Newham council and parliamentary seats in 2010. There's still the Euro elections in 2009. And there's an outside chance of winning a Birmingham parliamentary seat too.

I suppose humiliating is a relative term, but Galloway clearly expected to get elected to the GLA. Instead, his list finished 8th out of 15th, defeated not only by the Tories, Labour, Lib Dems, Greens and BNP, but also by the Christian Choice and Abolish the Congestion Charge. If I was a nationally known MP and politician and I got beaten by these last two unknown parties then I'd feel humiliated.
Overall Galloway got 59721 votes. Of these 20442(34%) came from one constituency, City and East. These of course were the votes of the Bengali and Pakistani Muslims of Tower Hamlets and Newham. These votes were obtained by working the mosques and cultivating local Muslim businessmen. I don't doubt that these same methods can be used again to gain seats on Tower Hamlets and Newham borough councils. But not to built a "broad left party". In fact, they could be counter-productive by alienating not only the "white" majority in the working class but also black christians, Sikhs, Hindus, etc.
I can't believe that Galloway himself and his inner circle don't realise this.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

...Of these 20442(34%) came from one constituency, City and East. These of course were the votes of the Bengali and Pakistani Muslims of Tower Hamlets and Newham. ...this.

Not entirely true - City and East includes Barking and Dagenham.

Respect got a reasonable 175 votes 5.9% in the GLA constituency election in Barking & Dagenham Longbridge ward which has a very small muslim population of less than 5%. (SWP/Left List got 11, 7 and 12 votes in the three elections they were on the ballot paper. They claim they are not targeting the votes of muslims, but were humiliated nonetheless.)

Of course the BNP did much better but with a dozen or so seats on the council they have a much higher profile. One key task for Respect in London is to break out of the Tower Hamlets and Newham areas, and start building in places like Longbridge ward.

At least Respect has a reasonable base as a starting point; the SWP/Left List are an irrelevance.


http://results.londonelects.org.uk/Results/xls/04_city_east.xls
http://www.neighbourhood.statistics...4&m=0&r=1&s=1211967892797&enc=1&dsFamilyId=17

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I suppose humiliating is a relative term

Yes it is very relative. If Respect was "humiliated", how would you describe the results in London for SWP/Left List then? I would run out of superlative qualifiers.

Like I said it was disappointing, but far, far better than the Socialist Alliance result in 2000, which given what the SWP have done to Respect over the last 12 months is a more appropriate benchmark. In City and East it was at least as good as 2004, from which base Respect went on to win a parliamentary seat and 15 council seats in the area - better than any left wing party in Britain since the second world war.

 

[osterberg]

Sorry to be off topic but:

Yes it is very relative. If Respect was "humiliated", how would you describe the results in London for SWP/Left List then? I would run out of superlative qualifiers.

Like I said it was disappointing, but far, far better than the Socialist Alliance result in 2000, which given what the SWP have done to Respect over the last 12 months is a more appropriate benchmark. In City and East it was at least as good as 2004, from which base Respect went on to win a parliamentary seat and 15 council seats in the area - better than any left wing party in Britain since the second world war.

Except for the communist party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Great_Britain

Two MPs in 1945 and numerous councillors in various places in the years since then till they imploded.
For some reason a few months back , the bbc's parliament channel showed the election programme for 1964 (which I came across by accident.I'm not that sad) and whenever a seat where the CP was standing came up they always got a few thousand votes.

Anyway , the Left List's vote was a big pile of steaming jobbies and no matter how hard it's spun Renewal 's vote is only a slightly smaller pile.

So instead of the schadenfreude what do about the present dismalness?

This convention of the left sounds interesting but I worry that it will be just a bunch of small left groups who hate each other's guts bickering in a room.Such is the state of the far left these days.

Any ideas,anybody?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Sorry to be off topic but:



Except for the communist party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Great_Britain

Two MPs in 1945 and numerous councillors in various places in the years since then till they imploded.
...

"since the second world war" means after the 1945 election - it was still going on when that election was fought (5 Jul 1945,) before the surrender of the japanese in August 1945). Certainly 1945 was the best left results - the CP won 2 seats, with 12.7% of the vote in 21 seats. The left wing Common Wealth Party had a similar vote, winning one seat, and the ILP won 4 seats (though not all these candidates were opposed by Labour).

After that, the CPGB won 91,746 in 1950 in 100 seats, but lost both seats it held and its average vote was 2.0% per seat contested compared to 68,094 in 26 seats, 6.9% for Respect in 2005.

The vote for the CPGB in 1964 was 45,932 in 32 seats, an average of just over 1,000 per seat, 3.4%, still well below that of Respect in 2005.

 

[osterberg]

"since the second world war" means after the 1945 election - it was still going on when that election was fought (5 Jul 1945,) before the surrender of the japanese in August 1945). Certainly 1945 was the best left results - the CP won 2 seats, with 12.7% of the vote in 21 seats. The left wing Common Wealth Party had a similar vote, winning one seat, and the ILP won 4 seats (though not all these candidates were opposed by Labour).

After that, the CPGB won 91,746 in 1950 in 100 seats, but lost both seats it held and its average vote was 2.0% per seat contested compared to 68,094 in 26 seats, 6.9% for Respect in 2005.

The vote for the CPGB in 1964 was 45,932 in 32 seats, an average of just over 1,000 per seat, 3.4%, still well below that of Respect in 2005.

You're such a font of knowledge,aren't you? I never cease to be amazed.
However the CP stood in 32 seats in '64 . How many did Respect stand in 2005 ?
I've no idea the results in '64 but I'm sure there are places where they did better than Respect and some where they didn't.
The main difference really is not the electoral performances but that , for better or worse , the CP were far more rooted in the working class,in communities and in work-places than Respect Renewal or indeed any left groups are today.
The question is how do the left recover and surpass that weight within the working class that there was in '64 (and even then it wasn't that great) ?

Edited to say:Whoops,sorry.Didn't notice that 68,094 in 26 seats, 6.9% for Respect in 2005. I should have paid attention. My brain melts down when presented with to many statistics . That does seem a bit more impressive than the CP in '64.
I still maintain they had more of a presence and influence in the working class in '64 than any left group today. Elections are not the only measure of such influence and are not the be all and end all of class struggle,are they?

 

[The39thStep]

And you go around web boards trying to wind people up. As that old show said, go out there and do something better instead Chuck.

Challenge is the heart of political debate son. if you are advertising your reading groups seminar you have to be prepared to defend its politics.

I would be interested as to how your union branches debate on standing ''public services, not private profit" is going or is it just an idea that the PR centre had?

 

[The39thStep]

You're such a font of knowledge,aren't you? I never cease to be amazed.
However the CP stood in 32 seats in '64 . How many did Respect stand in 2005 ?
I've no idea the results in '64 but I'm sure there are places where they did better than Respect and some where they didn't.
The main difference really is not the electoral performances but that , for better or worse , the CP were far more rooted in the working class,in communities and in work-places than Respect Renewal or indeed any left groups are today.
The question is how do the left recover and surpass that weight within the working class that there was in '64 (and even then it wasn't that great) ?

Edited to say:Whoops,sorry.Didn't notice that 68,094 in 26 seats, 6.9% for Respect in 2005. I should have paid attention. My brain melts down when presented with to many statistics . That does seem a bit more impressive than the CP in '64.
I still maintain they had more of a presence and influence in the working class in '64 than any left group today. Elections are not the only measure of such influence and are not the be all and end all of class struggle,are they?

Would any one here seriously swap RESPECT today for the CP of the 60s?

 

[cockneyrebel]

Challenge is the heart of political debate son. if you are advertising your reading groups seminar you have to be prepared to defend its politics.

I would be interested as to how your union branches debate on standing ''public services, not private profit" is going or is it just an idea that the PR centre had?

As said son, all you do is go around web boards trying to wind people up. Fair enough, but it's a tad obsessive and there must be something better to do.

 

[mk12]

As said son, all you do is go around web boards trying to wind people up. Fair enough, but it's a tad obsessive and there must be something better to do.

To be fair, he doesn't go round winding people up. Just one person.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

You're such a font of knowledge,aren't you? I never cease to be amazed.
However the CP stood in 32 seats in '64 . How many did Respect stand in 2005 ?
I've no idea the results in '64 but I'm sure there are places where they did better than Respect and some where they didn't.
The main difference really is not the electoral performances but that , for better or worse , the CP were far more rooted in the working class,in communities and in work-places than Respect Renewal or indeed any left groups are today.
The question is how do the left recover and surpass that weight within the working class that there was in '64 (and even then it wasn't that great) ?

Edited to say:Whoops,sorry.Didn't notice that 68,094 in 26 seats, 6.9% for Respect in 2005. I should have paid attention. My brain melts down when presented with to many statistics . That does seem a bit more impressive than the CP in '64.
I still maintain they had more of a presence and influence in the working class in '64 than any left group today. Elections are not the only measure of such influence and are not the be all and end all of class struggle,are they?

No of course elections are not the be all and end all of class struggle.

But if you are going to argue about them, it is helpful to know your facts. My not so secret weapon is a copy of British Political Facts 1900-1985 by David & Gareth Butler which I bought at a jumble sale many years ago - very useful book.

The CP certainly had a lot of influence in the trade union movement up to the end of the 1970s (and even after eg in the NUM). But they used that influence to tail end the right wing leadership in a way that no-one could accuse Respect of (though the SWP and SP supporting the election of a LibDem councillor to a left wing union executive comes close).

 

[audiotech]

To be fair, he doesn't go round winding people up. Just one person.

As you seem to do with exactly that same person.