newbie
undisambiguated
looks ok to me. I've got something similar which has worked with all the drives I've tried it with.
PC won't boot! Have I lost everything?
- Thread starter jusali
- Start date
looks ok to me. I've got something similar which has worked with all the drives I've tried it with.
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
We are going off topic here....
The environment you are talking about is obviously going to stress HD's to the absolute limits. I used to work in a lab come office environment where the computers are on 24/7 but only used 9-5pm. The most they were used for was: surf, email and word.
I have another example of where somebody corrupted a disk and dumped the computer at a car boot sale. My new (for me that is) Sony 2.6ghz P4 with 512mb ram and 80gb hard drive cost me £5. I was only after it for spares or possible repair. Turns out that it would not boot the OS and there was nothing wrong with it. Fixed it with Gparted 2 and It is now triple boot: Mandriva, Mint, and Puppy Linux with XP pro on a hidden partition in case I need it one day. I suspect the vast majority of HD failure is recoverable - but then that is speculation
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
the answer here is proably.
In a one disk set up you will usuall have the disk set to one of the three following:
no jumper - (master disk)
jumper on master - (cable has 1 or two 'ends' the furthest from the mother board (the bit the cable plugs into which is not the disk) will be plugged into the disk and the second one will be free or CD/DVD/Other disk)
Jumper on CS - ( Cable Select in some cases the cable might not reach to put the disks in the correct plug in order master on the end of the chain slave in the middle of the chain so cable select will then sort this out instead.)
Now a jumper is a tiny tiny little removeable bit of plastic which is at the bottom of the disk near to where the cable is plugged into the machine.
It is situated between the power cable socket and the main data cabel socket. it should consist of at least six pins (sometimes on different model disks 7 or in some cases on compaq/HP machines/segate disks 8) which are arranged in 2 rows of 3 they should also be marked either on the disk label MS/SL/CS or master/slave/cable select.
On some akward disks they will not be marked at all Hitachi i'm looking at you... but will follow the same or similar pattern.
as a general rule the master is the nearest two pins to the data cable socket
so it would look like or near to this:
:::
With master set to look something like this:
I::
where I is the jumper.
best to google your new disk and your old disk with jumper settings and look for a decent image of it to be doublley sure.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
He's having a larf, must be. No-one is that stupid.
How does Garf intend to copy the data off the drive with a corrupt system32 file (and we don't know *why* that particular file is corrupt -- it *could* be a software issue, rather than a sign of impending hardware failure that has mysteriously borked that particular file no?) without, err, reading the data from off the disk?
I think we should be told!
For clarity: booting from a liveCD will *not* use the hard drive at all. Copying the data from that drive is exactly what we need to do. That cannot be done without using the drive and reading the data.
newbie
undisambiguated
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
For clarity: booting from a liveCD will *not* use the hard drive at all. Copying the data from that drive is exactly what we need to do. That cannot be done without using the drive and reading the data.
I agree however in the bios boot process when the machine first comes alive does it not check that a HD is there? Then boots from the CD without touching the HD - sorry a bit OT.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
He's having a larf, must be. No-one is that stupid.
How does Garf intend to copy the data off the drive with a corrupt system32 file (and we don't know *why* that particular file is corrupt -- it *could* be a software issue, rather than a sign of impending hardware failure that has mysteriously borked that particular file no?) without, err, reading the data from off the disk?
I think we should be told!
For clarity: booting from a liveCD will *not* use the hard drive at all. Copying the data from that drive is exactly what we need to do. That cannot be done without using the drive and reading the data.
I don't think you understood what Garf was saying.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Yes, the BIOS needs to recognise that an internal drive is present. If it does not, then that drive will be inaccessible to whatever operating system the bios loads.
Although the access light comes on, the bios recognises a drive is present without bothering to read/write to the drive.
Although the access light comes on, the bios recognises a drive is present without bothering to read/write to the drive.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Well, if it didn't make any sense, I can hardly be faulted for that, can I?
Can you explain how to copy the data off the drive without, err, reading the data from it? Can anyone?
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
I'm totlally not ruling it out however you seem to be assuming that hard drive broken means the same to you as it does to less experinced users.We are going off topic here....
The environment you are talking about is obviously going to stress HD's to the absolute limits. I used to work in a lab come office environment where the computers are on 24/7 but only used 9-5pm. The most they were used for was: surf, email and word.
I have another example of where somebody corrupted a disk and dumped the computer at a car boot sale. My new (for me that is) Sony 2.6ghz P4 with 512mb ram and 80gb hard drive cost me £5. I was only after it for spares or possible repair. Turns out that it would not boot the OS and there was nothing wrong with it. Fixed it with Gparted 2 and It is now triple boot: Mandriva, Mint, and Puppy Linux with XP pro on a hidden partition in case I need it one day. I suspect the vast majority of HD failure is recoverable - but then that is speculation
some people will see the unable to find boot partition message and think disk fucked. rather than disk corrupted. and bin the machine or stick it in a boot sale I got a lappy for tp like this again about a tenner for it was a steal and took about 20 mins to fix and sort... but this is because i know what i'm doing (to a certain extent) and can recover a machine from this state. being able to do this is actually dispite the simplicity of the process quite advanced in knowledge base or skill set for the average windows user however. most people will see it think it's broken and kill of the machine or pay for extortionate repairs which usually lose their data or have their machine reformatted for no good reason.
some people will then bin the machine for a new one and invest in a external hard drive to save their more precious data (still not a decent back up option if you ask me but hey) some people with even less experince will bin their machine when it slows due to spywear or other rubbish they have installed.
This isn't an indication of the number of disk fails or pc failures but rather an indication of the limited amount of computer literachy at any developed level above i can use word send emails and find boobs on the net...
there's little point except in circumstances such as this thread attempting to educate those who will not dive in to the machine as to how to resolve this problem becuase for the majority they have no intrest in how it works (alot like car mechanics or any engineering for that matter) they just want it to do what they want when they want...
In this repect Windows is woefully lacking in the time machine type back up systems which mac has or the infinate back possiblites in 'nix which lead people to assume that this isn't possilbe and if it goes it's gone...
so they end up at car boots for cheap....
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
the system 32 will not affect in anyway the disks slave usage as it's not being read from their but from the new install on the new disk.
unless the full table structure has been deleted which i very much doubt would be the case.
you and the user have no way of diagnoising whether this is a software problem or not but in safest senario restore and back up is the simplest solution for all concerned demanding to be told what caused the issue when the user has explained their limited understand will not get them a solution which gives them back their machine or importantly their data.
regardless of the technical ellegance of your solution to the user it's simply outside of the scope of the users knowledge and there's not point in trying to make them a full system admin/tech when all they want is a working machine with their precious data recovered.
it's the path of least fuck up least issue and least hassle for the op and their knowledge base.
erm aprt from spining the disk at start of the machine of course sending the head seeking accross the boot sector of the disk (ie in reality all of the disk to find the boot sector) and therefore potentially causing more damage for no specific gain to a user with out the pre-requist skill set to then use the Live cd for recovery.For clarity: booting from a liveCD will *not* use the hard drive at all. Copying the data from that drive is exactly what we need to do. That cannot be done without using the drive and reading the data.
We're not talking perfect assumed knowledge the user has already said they don't have this and it's more problematic to a user to take them down a more difficult path than an easier one.
it's not that i'm disputing your advice, i'm disputing it's application in this instance.
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
It is interesting to hear other peoples opinions and experiences. You are probably correct in most of what you are saying as I suspect I am (or not)
However a forum like this is a great place to encourage others to try something new like Linux even if it means information overload
.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
sorry i'm not understanding why you are being pissy has some one trod on your dick?
the user wants their data to come off the old drive it looks like with out in depth diagnosis that the drive is failing. even if this isn't true a restore on the existing disk will remove all user data, in effect restoring it back to new.
the user data is what the user wishes to preserve.
if this is true then the only sensible solution which can be offered to a user with limited understanding is to replace the main disk with a new one and copy over from the old disk.
no where on this thread has anyone suggested that this wouldn't involve spinning the old disk we have been talking at lenght which is where you dispute seems to want to come from about minimising that disk usage in order to ensure the maximum chance of data recovery from the old disk.
at no point has anyone suggested that this couldn't be done in linux that there aren't alterntive manners or ways of doing this.
what has been suggested is the simplest manner in which the OP can do this with out needed an unobtainable level or skill set in a short timespace which will make their machine work again.
so again why are you being pissy?
no ones dispituting your answer merely it's relevance to the OP's problem and skill set.
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
You are talking about taking the machine apart? The technically sweet option is the path of least resistance and that says Live CD and have a look see first?
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
It is interesting to hear other peoples opinions and experiences. You are probably correct in most of what you are saying as I suspect I am (or not)
However a forum like this is a great place to encourage others to try something new like Linux even if it means information overload
.
the forum is, and there are many threads on it this thread however i would gauge isn't the place to start 'evanglising the benefits of another system'
It'd be a bit like advising a birthing mother that they need to have a diabites test regularlly at the point of birth... good intentions not withstanding...
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
not if you don't know linux.
you are asking the OP to learn a new skill set in order to do something which may or may not fix their problem dependant on how far they get.
in my example i'm asking the user to extend their skill set and learn a few new things which will follow a logical order (unscrew this set jumper to that etc) to give them back what they had.
can you not see the difference?
one is learn an entirely alien cultureal way of doing things to try and solve your problem the other is a solution to the problem which requires less instant learning and restores their machine.
It's not that a live CD won't do this but can you not see how talioring your advice to the users technical skill set is as important as the 'pureity' of the solution offered.
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
Sorry I would have to disagree. This is the ideal opportunity to see the full power of Linux in action. Yes it might not work but then what you are suggesting is more like surgery which should be avoided at all costs .
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
I think that you are trying to convert those already in distress...
if you like the scientologists 'helping out' after 11th sept 2001 using it to attempt to push vunerable people towards dianetics at a point where they wanted anything of hope to cling to... it's just innappropreate...
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
I think we better agree to disagree and leave it at that
furry muff...
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
We are all going to look stupid if it turns out to be thermal cycling loosening a connector somewhere
Jonti
what the dormouse said
This is rubbish.
When the BIOS is set to boot from a CD as the first option, it does not look for a boot sector on the hard drive.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
it still spins the disk on power up jesus man ...
again who pissed on your cornflakes what exactly are you attempting to achive by continuing this bollocks?
to repeate I've not discounted or disputed your solution i have suggested it's outside of the skill set of the OP and am suggesting another tack in order to get them back to square one...
so please tell me exactly why you are attempting to turn this thread asking for help with a specific problem into some kind of dick measuring contest i have absolutly no intrest in that, try the poltics forums or start a thread asking detroit city for info
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Yeah, you can remove the hard drives completely and still boot from a CD.
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
I have done that on a old machine. This is interesting - does the hard drive spin up to speed as power is turned on but the heads not move?
I have just had a look at this boot sequence info:
11. The BIOS begins the search for a drive to boot from. Most modern BIOSes contain a setting that controls if the system should first try to boot from the floppy disk (A
or first try the hard disk (C. Some BIOSes will even let you boot from your CD-ROM drive or other devices, depending on the boot sequence BIOS setting.12. Having identified its target boot drive, the BIOS looks for boot information to start the operating system boot process. If it is searching a hard disk, it looks for a master boot record at cylinder 0, head 0, sector 1 (the first sector on the disk); if it is searching a floppy disk, it looks at the same address on the floppy disk for a volume boot sector.
13. If it finds what it is looking for, the BIOS starts the process of booting the operating system, using the information in the boot sector. At this point, the code in the boot sector takes over from the BIOS. The DOS boot process is described in detail here. If the first device that the system tries (floppy, hard disk, etc.) is not found, the BIOS will then try the next device in the boot sequence, and continue until it finds a bootable device.
14. If no boot device at all can be found, the system will normally display an error message and then freeze up the system. What the error message is depends entirely on the BIOS, and can be anything from the rather clear "No boot device available" to the very cryptic "NO ROM BASIC - SYSTEM HALTED". This will also happen if you have a bootable hard disk partition but forget to set it active.
Found it here:
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/mbsys/bios/bootSequence-c.html
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
i'm clearly showing the frustration of someone who is asking why you are continuing along pointless pedanrty for no gain to the OP...
so why are you?
no one's said you can't what's your point caller?
however the putting of power into the machine at turn on boot will spin the disks and reset the heads accross the drives...I have done that on a old machine. This is interesting - does the hard drive spin up to speed as power is turned on but the heads not move?
I have just had a look at this boot sequence info:
11. The BIOS begins the search for a drive to boot from. Most modern BIOSes contain a setting that controls if the system should first try to boot from the floppy disk (A
12. Having identified its target boot drive, the BIOS looks for boot information to start the operating system boot process. If it is searching a hard disk, it looks for a master boot record at cylinder 0, head 0, sector 1 (the first sector on the disk); if it is searching a floppy disk, it looks at the same address on the floppy disk for a volume boot sector.
13. If it finds what it is looking for, the BIOS starts the process of booting the operating system, using the information in the boot sector. At this point, the code in the boot sector takes over from the BIOS. The DOS boot process is described in detail here. If the first device that the system tries (floppy, hard disk, etc.) is not found, the BIOS will then try the next device in the boot sequence, and continue until it finds a bootable device.
14. If no boot device at all can be found, the system will normally display an error message and then freeze up the system. What the error message is depends entirely on the BIOS, and can be anything from the rather clear "No boot device available" to the very cryptic "NO ROM BASIC - SYSTEM HALTED". This will also happen if you have a bootable hard disk partition but forget to set it active.
Found it here:
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/mbsys/bios/bootSequence-c.html
sorry but this is still a pointless diversion away from helping the OP, to sasitate Jonti's need to win at the internet...
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
i'm clearly showing the frustration of someone who is asking why you are continuing along pointless pedanrty for no gain to the OP...
so why are you?
no one's said you can't what's your point caller?
however the putting of power into the machine at turn on boot will spin the disks and reset the heads accross the drives...
sorry but this is still a pointless diversion away from helping the OP, to sasitate Jonti's need to win at the internet...
