Pathetic women in film

[Badger Kitten]

nice putdown Trashpony

 

[Badger Kitten]

Easy Rider.

 

[Reno]

Could you be a little more patronising?

I studied film theory for my degree. And actually I think you'll find that many feminist film critics take a very different view from Modleski.

Mulvey in particular argues that:


So fair point but don't assume you're way better educated than everyone else eh?

Mulvey is flawed, all too easy to pick apart and hideously dated now. Thank heavens gender politics and film theory have moved on since the 70's.

 

[trashpony]

Mulvey is flawed and hideously dated now. Thank heavens gender politics and film theory have moved on since then.

Really? As far as I know she's still a professor at Birkbeck. Still I expect you know best. I'm just a silly girl.

Oh and Modleski doesn't appear to have a book published since 1991. In contrast to Mulvey whose last book which looks at Hitchcock inter alia which was published last year.

 

[Reno]

Really? As far as I know she's still a professor at Birkbeck. Still I expect you know best. I'm just a silly girl.

When you are talking about Mulvey I assume you are referring to her then groundbreaking essay "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" from 1973 in which she held the views you describe. She'd be the first to admit now that it was meant as a provocation and a manifesto, but that since then she's moved on and has changed her opinions considerably. Please also read "Afterthoughts on 'Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" which puts the essay within its historical context. I wished they'd mention that one when teaching film theory these days. I've met her myself when she gave a lecture at my college in the late 80's, which confirmed that by then her views on Hitchcock and classic British and Hollywood cinema had changed very much and had progressed from her simplistic stance of reading films from a perspective of early 70's radical feminism.

 

[scifisam]

Faye Wray in the original King Kong.

Jane in early Tarzan movies.

Storm in the X-Men (the movies, not the comics). Far too dependent on the men, for a superhero. At least she is 1 and 2; I've been warned off umber 3.

 

[Dubversion]

to be fair, reno, who's right or wrong here is almost secondary. I do think your initial response to trashpony was very superior, you just assumed she had only a 'superficial' understanding.

That her rather more considered understanding might be at odds with yours is definitely a secondary point.

 

[Negativland]

Solaris by Tarkovsky is a great example of this - the woman is a projection of the blokes fantasy/memory, she doesn't have an existance apart from him.

 

[trashpony]

When you are talking about Mulvey I assume you are referring to her then groundbreaking essay "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" from 1973 in which she held the views you describe. Well she'd be the first to admit that it was meant as a provocation and a manifesto, but that since then she's moved on and has changed her opinions considerably. Please also read "Afterthoughts on 'Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" which puts the essay within its historical context. I wished they'd mention that one when teaching film theory these days. It come from a stance of early 70's radical feminist theory which I happen not to don't agree with in 2006 and which the films don't bear out if you actually bother to look at them. I've met her myself when she gave a lecture at my college, which confirmed that by the late 80's her views on Hitchcock and classic British and Hollywood cinema had changed very much and that she stuck me as much more reasonable than her essay would suggest.

I thought you said she was flawed and hideously dated?

And I've read Afterthoughts on Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema actually. And I've met her too! Amazing eh?

 

[Moggy]

The hooker who get's drowned in a paddling pool of her own shit in Dead or Alive?

Various other women in Miike films spring to mind too funnily enough.

 

[Reno]

I thought you said she was flawed and hideously dated?

And I've read Afterthoughts on Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema actually. And I've met her too! Amazing eh?

I will moderate my statement as referring to the 1973 essay which is what people tend to mean when they talk about Laura Mulvey, which was historically important but now is flawed and hideously dated. When I read it in the mid-80's I was pretty much appalled by it's simplistic POV but later when I met her I found her likable and reasonable and the opinions she voiced on Hitchcock later on are very different from the ones you seem to still hold on to. In the end I'm simply am incredulous at your opinion that the variety of female characters in his film are just there to be killed off and I'm pretty sure that even Mulvey would not agree with you anymore.

 

[trashpony]

I will moderate my statement as referring to the 1973 essay which is what people tend to mean when they talk about Laura Mulvey, which is flawed and hideously dated and it's the main thing Mulvey is still rememebred for. When I read it in the mid-80's I was pretty much appalled by it's simplistic POV but later when I met her I found her likable and reasonable and the opinions she voiced on Hitchcock later on are very different from the ones you seem to still hold on to. In the end I'm simply am incredulous at your opinion that the variety of female characters in his film are just there to be killed off and I'm pretty sure that even Mulvey would not agree with you anymore.

Whatever.

 

[Reno]

Whatever.

Always an easy way out isn't it.

 

[Leica]

Women in Hitchcock films don't ever really have personalities - they're only there to be murdered. He's a bit dodgy

I strongly disagree. Women are the foundation of his films.

By the way, I don't see where Reno is being patronising. He is simply arguing that there is an opposite opinion to the one you stated, and he is basing his argument on actual examples from Hitchcock. So far you haven't said anything to support your view other than quote Mulvey.

 

[trashpony]

Always an easy way out isn't it.

You came down on me like a ton of bricks because you thought I didn't know what I was talking about. Then you found out I was and so you derided me for being out of date and the theorist I quoted for being flawed. Then when you realised that I knew a bit more than you realised, you revised your perspective again.

So you're being a bit wriggly but I don't want to get into a big row and I was just pointing out that you could argue that there are some pathetic women in Hitchcock's films.

Given the level of the OP, I hardly think the person is writing a dissertation on the subject, do you? So neither time nor the place to delve deep into feminist film theory I feel.

ETA and all I was doing was saying that Tipi Hedren's character was probably right to be a bit freaked out and making a throwaway comment

 

[jbob]

dont agree with any mike leigh cos there are lots of strong women but certainly:
Candice-Marie in Nuts in May

and possibly Beverley in Abigails Party

Do you mean Candice and Beverley are 'strong' characters or they're 'pathetic'? It could be argued that both are, to a degree, reasonably 'strong' characters in the way they control their partners, for example. It all depends on your definition of 'strong'.

It's not an unusual accusation that has been thrown at Leigh, but I would suggest that they are moreover typically misogynistic portraits of women that are a motif of his films. I can't think of one of his films that doesn't have an unbalanced/hysterical female character in it.

And as side issue, having been in the audience when he was interviewed at the ICA by a female interviewer, and he completely belittled and patronised her, I became more aware of how these elements surface in his films. He's a very unpleasant character, in my opinion.

 

[pk]

Doesn't get much more pathetic than this.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Doesn't get much more pathetic than this.

absofuckinglutely

 

[trabuquera]

The first one that comes to mind is Penelope Cruz's character in JAMON, JAMON; despite it being a fine-ish film, and Penelope being then a fine young thing, her character is just such an incredibly weedy, whining drip that I wanted to punch her.

(I've since moderated this opinion and since seeing her in Volver I wouldn't dare cross words much less carving knives with her ... clearly the fault was with the script wriers)...

 

[Reno]

You came down on me like a ton of bricks because you thought I didn't know what I was talking about. Then you found out I was and so you derided me for being out of date and the theorist I quoted for being flawed. Then when you realised that I knew a bit more than you realised, you revised your perspective again.

So you're being a bit wriggly but I don't want to get into a big row and I was just pointing out that you could argue that there are some pathetic women in Hitchcock's films.

Given the level of the OP, I hardly think the person is writing a dissertation on the subject, do you? So neither time nor the place to delve deep into feminist film theory I feel.

ETA and all I was doing was saying that Tipi Hedren's character was probably right to be a bit freaked out and making a throwaway comment

Thanks for the brief recap, but I never changed my perspective apart from clarifying that I didn't mean to attack Laura Mulvey as the person and academic she is now (which is irrelevant to this discussion), but that the one piece of work she is known for is badly dated and not supported by actually watching the films.

I think there always is time to delve deep into feminist film theory, just don't diss Tippi.

 

[Reno]

You came down on me like a ton of bricks because you thought I didn't know what I was talking about. Then you found out I was and so you derided me for being out of date and the theorist I quoted for being flawed. Then when you realised that I knew a bit more than you realised, you revised your perspective again.

So you're being a bit wriggly but I don't want to get into a big row and I was just pointing out that you could argue that there are some pathetic women in Hitchcock's films.

Given the level of the OP, I hardly think the person is writing a dissertation on the subject, do you? So neither time nor the place to delve deep into feminist film theory I feel.

ETA and all I was doing was saying that Tipi Hedren's character was probably right to be a bit freaked out and making a throwaway comment

Thanks for the brief recap, but I never changed my perspective apart from clarifying that I didn't mean to attack Laura Mulvey as the person and academic she is now (which is irrelevant to this discussion), but that the one piece of work she is known for is badly dated and not supported by actually watching the films.

I think there always is time to delve deep into feminist film theory, just don't diss Tippi.

 

[MikeMcc]

most slasher flicks - Friday the 13th, Nightmare on elm street, Halloween, etc. While they may have a strong female lead role the rest of the women exist purely for titilation and to get hacked, same goes for the blokes though...

 

[DotCommunist]

Ennit mike. Who didn't get a hard on when the girl from Texas Chainsaw massacre was impaled on a hook?



i is is just saying that to wind up the feminist film critics on this thread. I should get a life

 

[marksl]

Most hollywood films portry women "even the strong ones" as women who need a man, doesn't matter what the role of the women is evnetually the male leads saves her as she is in fits of screaming tears.