Passport needed to buy a mobile

[_angel_]

You've got to do something practical to get rid of this NL scum Haven't you? Give the tories the chance to at least halt the constant infantilising and snooping culture of NL.

I'd rather take my chance with a party that when they were in govt rejected the idea of mass surveillance via id cards etc

The tories aint perfect not by a long way but they are the only way that the electorate can snatch back whats left of their freedoms. It could be better but we have to work with the political hand we are dealt.

I don't believe the tories will stop any of this tbh! It'll be more of the same only worse, we'll have Cameron's gormless mug inflicted on us.

 

[xes]

That's all of mankind then..

do you have your passport on you? Or your ID card? Right,you're against the law,in you go.


it won't be funny when it comes true.

 

[_angel_]

do you have your passport on you? Or your ID card? Right,you're against the law,in you go.


it won't be funny when it comes true.

ID cards will just be a good excuse for the police to legitimately hassle/ lock up anyone they don't like the look of for not having one on them, I'm worried.

 

[chilango]

do you have your passport on you? Or your ID card? Right,you're against the law,in you go.


it won't be funny when it comes true.

Already the case in most of Europe.

 

[Zachor]

I don't believe the tories will stop any of this tbh! It'll be more of the same only worse, we'll have Cameron's gormless mug inflicted on us.

What do you suggest then? Voting for some no hope party like Respect, laughably pointless 'direct action' or what have you? Sadly the only way to practically remove NL is sadly to vote Tory. Its sad that its come to this where the only way to remove a party that is rampaging through peoples personal freedoms is to vote for the Tories but there is no choice really. Any other vote is a vote for more of the same shit.

 

[_angel_]

What do you suggest then? Voting for some no hope party like Respect, laughably pointless 'direct action' or what have you? Sadly the only way to practically remove NL is sadly to vote Tory. Its sad that its come to this where the only way to remove a party that is rampaging through peoples personal freedoms is to vote for the Tories but there is no choice really. Any other vote is a vote for more of the same shit.

They're ALL the same shit, but the Tories will make it their duty to make life harder for the poor. As we go into a recession that isn't something I will relish.

 

[xes]

Already the case in most of Europe.

and yet people still don't fight Just roll over,your goverments know what's best for them,err,I mean you.

 

[chilango]

and yet people still don't fight Just roll over,your goverments know what's best for them,err,I mean you.

I think its been the case for a long, long time. ID cards etc and the concept of having to carry one is not all that novel over here I think.

 

[xes]

what info do thee ID cards have on them over there then? (where is over there if you don't mind me asking?)

 

[chilango]

what info do thee ID cards have on them over there then? (where is over there if you don't mind me asking?)

Italy at the mo.

Portugal too requires it iirc.

Haven't got mine yet so I have to carry passport around with me (well, a photocopy anyway).

Photo, name , dob etc. address probably (your residence is required to be registered with the authorities too)

 

[chilango]

In Mexico I had to carry one with my name, photo, dob finger print and address, work status, employer etc. on it.

Usually didn't, but was almost arrested for not having it once when stopped at a motorway toll!

 

[Zachor]

They're ALL the same shit, but the Tories will make it their duty to make life harder for the poor. As we go into a recession that isn't something I will relish.

I agree that the choices are unedifying. Yes it is a worry about the attitudes of some Tories to the poor. However, I feel that they will hopefully know what side their bread is buttered (as with the 1950's Lab/Tory Butskillite consensus) and realise that attacking those newly poor such as those displaced by the current financial convulsions doesn't help the general structures and efficiency of the country and would rebound on them. I hope that the tories have learned the lessons of their mistakes in the past and seeing post Thatcherite tories maybe they will not make the mistakes of the 80's.

I reckon there will be a bit of attention paid to those who are bludging and other minor stuff to play to their own gallery and taxpayers who feel under pressure to pay out for very poor results.

I don't think that its in the interests of the country or the tory party for them to engage on a wholesale attack on the poor.

 

[cybertect]

No. I'm just interested by the fact that people see their ability to buy certain things as a "right".

TBH, I think that's the less interesting point about this move.

- If you're to be required to have a passport or National ID card to buy a phone, it's a not so subtle half-Nelson on the British public to fall into line with the ID Card scheme. There was lots of flam from ministers when the paving Bill was going through Parliament that they wouldn't be compulsory.

This kind of thing shows that they can make life very difficult if you don't have one, however 'voluntary' it might be - while it's not perhaps a 'right', living without a mobile phone these days is somewhat tricky.

N.B. from 2012-ish you'll get a free entry on the National ID database with every passport whether you want it or not and the key difference between the UK plans and other countries' ID Card schemes is the database behind it.

- It won't really prevent anyone getting a phone without ID if they're determined to; simply source it abroad. If they criminalise purchasing a foreign phone for UK citizens, does anyone believe that organised criminals and terrorists would think twice about it merely for that reason?

As with a lot of these kinds of measures, it will make life inconvenient for the majority of people while leaving a door wide open for the ostensible targets of the legislation to walk through.

 

[_angel_]

TBH, I think that's the less interesting point about this move.

- If you're to be required to have a passport or National ID card to buy a phone, it's a not so subtle half-Nelson on the British public to fall into line with the ID Card scheme. There was lots of flam from ministers when the paving Bill was going through Parliament that they wouldn't be compulsory.

This kind of thing shows that they can make life very difficult if you don't have one, however 'voluntary' it might be - while it's not perhaps a 'right', living without a mobile phone these days is somewhat tricky.

N.B. from 2012-ish you'll get a free entry on the National ID database with every passport whether you want it or not.

- It won't really prevent anyone getting a phone without ID if they're determined to; simply source it abroad. If they criminalise purchasing a foreign phone for UK citizens, does anyone believe that organised criminals and terrorists would think twice about it merely for that reason?

As with a lot of these kinds of measures, it will make life inconvenient for the majority of people while leaving a door wide open for the ostensible targets of the legislation to walk through.

Are they going to criminalise giving your old phone to a mate, for example?

 

[cybertect]

The Times article is a bit vague, but I imagine it won't be the purchase of an actual phone that will require formal ID, but a pay-as-you-go SIM that allows you to make calls.

Don't be surprised if a lot of shops ask for your ID if you're just purchasing a new handset, though. What a marketing opportunity...

 

[iskande]

N.B. from 2012-ish you'll get a free entry on the National ID database with every passport whether you want it or not and the key difference between the UK plans and other countries' ID Card schemes is the database behind it.

what do other counties use...? big long bits of paper...? punch cards and knitting needles...?

 

[Zachor]

As with a lot of these kinds of measures, it will make life inconvenient for the majority of people while leaving a door wide open for the ostensible targets of the legislation to walk through.

I think that the whole ethos of New Labours database state plans are to this end, the minute control of every individual citizens movements and actions. Terrorism is just the excuse.

NL are imposing levels of control on the population that tyrants throughout the ages would wet themselves for.

I'm willing to risk a change for long term benefit not the short term comfort of hanging on to a cruel nurse because of groundless fears of something worse.

 

[ethel]

Aren't they able to pinpoint mobile phones location anyway (how they got the phone calls and location of the would be glasgow bombers)??

in james bond maybe. you can triangulate using the masts, but that's never going to be exact, especially in an urban area.

please please if you are in serious trouble ring from a landline. your details come up straight away. mobiles involve having to phone the mobile company to see if you've registered the phone.

 

[poster342002]

anything that you can communicate with,or protect yourself with.

Oh, we'd better have to apply for license to open our gob and speak, then, as well. After all - we might "misuse" it somehow, so we really need proper safeguards in place. Perhaps wwe should be obliged to tape-record every conversation we have each day and send it to the Ministry of Information - just to be on the safe side. And if we've nothing to hide, we'd have no valid reason to object to such a measure, eh?

 

[cybertect]

what do other counties use...? big long bits of paper...? punch cards and knitting needles...?

I'm sure they use databases to manage the lists of citizens, but they're kept in isolation.

The point is that one of the stated intentions of the UK NID scheme is to cross-link the National Identity Register with everything else: your NHS treatment, police and tax records, etc.

Furthermore, it's also been floated that the National Identity Register would also link to other private and commercial databases, such as your banking transactions and employment records. For example, it would allow supermarkets to share your purchasing information with the police.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/07/brown_id_expansion/

On a related note, in the UK scheme the card itself is merely a token of your biometric record on the NIR.

 

[iskande]

I'm sure they use databases to manage the lists of citizens, but they're kept in isolation.

...and no one else would think of a centralised db...? not even france...?

 

[cybertect]

Believe it or not

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_national_identity_card

Identity cards, valid for a period of 10 years, are issued by the local préfecture, sous-préfecture, mairie (in France) or in any French Embassy (abroad) and are free of charge. A fingerprint of the holder is taken, which is stored in paper files and which can only be accessed by a judge in closely defined circumstances. A central database duplicates the information on the card, but strict laws limit access to the information and prevent it being linked to other databases or records.

[emphasis added]

 

[kyser_soze]

Well the Swedish databases aren't kept in isolation from each other; everyone gets a single ID number at birth, used to access ALL state services, and as a central reference point for state agencies, for your whole life (so it has access to everything from medical to school records).

Personummer

 

[kyser_soze]

Can I point out that the reason I've used Sweden specifically is because it's often held up as a paragon of social democracy and freedom by people on these boards...

 

[weltweit]

If terrorists want to communicate they can always meet in a wooded area and speak to each other using their mouths! Quite unlikely they will be eavesdropped on when using that method.

 

[kyser_soze]

If terrorists want to communicate they can always meet in a wooded area and speak to each other using their mouths! Quite unlikely they will be eavesdropped on when using that method.

 

[weltweit]

Indeed, but as our top police cannot even follow the right suspect from a house when they intend to blow his head off I seriously doubt they will be able to follow all terrorist suspects when they are walking their dogs in the park, near or far.

 

[poster342002]

Can I point out that the reason I've used Sweden specifically is because it's often held up as a paragon of social democracy and freedom by people on these boards...

It could be said that Sweden at least has a 'quid pro quo' in the form of an intact welfare state and higher standard of living in return for higher state involvement in personal ID. Do you think we'll get that in return here in the UK? Fat chance. We'll get all of the 'down' and none of the 'up'.

 

[weltweit]

Arguably the security services do not need all mobiles to be registered, they just need the numbers of those that they are interested in and that they can obtain by monitoring the mobiles locally and then liasing with the phone companies when calls are made to pin down the actual numbers they want to monitor.

Can you imagine, how many mobiles are owned by kids who spend all day texting each other, why would the security sevices want those numbers? .....

 

[_angel_]

Well the Swedish databases aren't kept in isolation from each other; everyone gets a single ID number at birth, used to access ALL state services, and as a central reference point for state agencies, for your whole life (so it has access to everything from medical to school records).

Personummer

It does say not every agency has the right to access all the data however..

The connection between a person and the identity number, is done with Swedish identity documents, like ID cards. They are necessary for personal service at banks, authorities, health care and other services that use the personal identity number. All people are not allowed to get them however

It could be said that Sweden at least has a 'quid pro quo' in the form of an intact welfare state and higher standard of living in return for higher state involvement in personal ID. Do you think we'l get that in return herein the UK? Fat chance. We'll get all of the 'down' and none of the 'up'.

Quite. Also, it is odd to assume just because people praise Sweden for it's higher standards of living and greater equality, it means we have to adapt their more authoritarian aspects.