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Parenting/Educational Psychology and Politics .. is there a link?

mk12 said:
I think the democratisation of society during those years is something to learn from.

Agreed: :) . It is worth studying because there were really profund changes which overthrew capitalism, insitigated a new socialist society if only very briefly and there's a lot to learn.


mk12 said:
I also think the counter-revolution ...is also something to learn from.

Absolutely.

Where we disagree is on the overarching role you ascribe to Lenin and Trotsky on this and the Bolshevik party. Mistakes were made, even fatal errors but Lenin and the Bolsheviks were I think far more democratic than many of today's left groups- for example they had open disagreements over fundamental matters in public.

Anyway I don't supect we'll agree on this any time soon or that one of these boards is the best forum for this sort of discussion.

There is an article in the forth coming print version of PR on this if you're at all interested.
 
Mistakes were made, even fatal errors but Lenin and the Bolsheviks were I think far more democratic than many of today's left groups- for example they had open disagreements over fundamental matters in public.

As I said above: The Bolsheviks "banned opposition parties and banned their newspapers, disbanded soviets which returned non-Bolshevik majorities, arrested delegates to democratically elected congresses, and shot workers who were pushing for political liberties." Yet you think they were at least "democratic". I couldn't give a monkeys how internally democratic they were (and I would argue they were not, in all honesty) if this is the kind of policies they were carrying out.

"There is an article in the forth coming print version of PR on this if you're at all interested."

On what? THe Russian Revolution? Would you like me to write a reply now, as I can imagine what the arguments will be that PR put forward. :) It's not about agreeing on the issue, it's about accepting certain facts.
 
No on democratic centralism.

I think the key point is defence of workers' democracy and we should give a monkies about that and you can't put it all down to an evil men of history type argument.
 
I'm not ignoring your points at all- I think and have said many times workers' democracy is key lesson of the failure of the Russian revolution- I think you'd agree. (Other key failures of course are the lack of revolution in rest of Europe etc.) However, your brand of politics seems to be to put down all failures tot he Bolsheviks and Lenin and Trotsky- they made mistakes but it's too simplsitic to put it down to one or two people I think and risks not learning the lessons of history by making out it is only a problem of a particualr sort of communist or socialist.

You also seem to think that whatever point I or someone else makes is automatically invalidated because of the label of trotskyist. I say I beleive in workers' democracy but then you say you can't because you;re a trot and they;re murderers or whatever- tell me if that's unfair.
 
your brand of politics seems to be to put down all failures tot he Bolsheviks and Lenin and Trotsky- they made mistakes but it's too simplsitic to put it down to one or two people I think and risks not learning the lessons of history by making out it is only a problem of a particualr sort of communist or socialist.

I think there were lots of reasons for the failure of the revolution - failure of the German revolution, the small size of the industrial working class, the civil war etc etc. I just think the Bolshevik Party (not just Lenin and Trotsky), the party in power, also played a major role in the the demise of the revolution.

I say I beleive in workers' democracy but then you say you can't because you;re a trot and they;re murderers or whatever- tell me if that's unfair.

I think it's hypocritical for someone who looks to Trotsky as a guide on so many issues can claim he support genuine workers' democracy. I agree with Brinton who argues that "Those who strangled the viable infant are now hawking the corpse around."
 
urbanrevolt said:
I'm not ignoring your points at all- I think and have said many times workers' democracy is key lesson of the failure of the Russian revolution- I think you'd agree. (Other key failures of course are the lack of revolution in rest of Europe etc.) However, your brand of politics seems to be to put down all failures tot he Bolsheviks and Lenin and Trotsky- they made mistakes but it's too simplsitic to put it down to one or two people I think and risks not learning the lessons of history by making out it is only a problem of a particualr sort of communist or socialist.

You also seem to think that whatever point I or someone else makes is automatically invalidated because of the label of trotskyist. I say I beleive in workers' democracy but then you say you can't because you;re a trot and they;re murderers or whatever- tell me if that's unfair.

hi urbanr .. i do not put the problems down to 'mistakes' at all but fundamental political issues. Leninism ( and this takes us back to the OP) is fundamentally a middle class mangerial ideology ( lenins models were early american industrialism and theh prussian post office - hardly workers control).

whilem reichs critique i think is very strong. He alleges ( serge agreed but could see no alternative ) .. that as soon as the russian workers felt they were not in power their allegiance to the revolution wanned . it is always alleged, maybe correctly, that the kronstadt salors of 1921 were often peasents .. what is always ignored by the left is that the kronstdat uprising for a third revolution was not some isolated occurance but came on the back of a general strike in pertograd's factories for the same thing .. a renewal of the revolution.

It is fundamental to leninism that the w/c is NOT capable of making revolution alone ( without a bolsheivk party taking the state and changing society from above ) nor even trancending trade union mentality. These are not tactical errors but fundamental errors that have plagued the left EVER since and lead directly to todays alienation of 'party' and class.

The left does not have to be like this .. there are the traditions of dunayevskaya of clr james or luxembourg of elements of class struggle anarchism that somehow still are almost entirely ignored by the overwhelmingly still trot left of the uk

why? i guess because lenin is seen as having suceeded .. but he did not suceed as a socialist .. he suceeded as a putchist and as a state capitalist .. his was russias bourgois revolution .. and finally as laying the ground for totalitarianism .. his model is how to overthrow a decadent aristiocratic empire after years of war .. entirely irrelevnt to modern britain .. he is NOT a good model
 
Leninism as we know it- heavily distorted by Stalinism- may be but my point is there is something of value to learn fromt the struggles of Russian workers, from the soviets, from the Bolsheviks etc.

I said before that in my opinion working class ordinary people need to use our power, our organisation, our creativity to really radically democratise struggle and society and durutti agreed with me but made this into being explicitly anti lenin- I don;t agree that we should be against Lenin or socialism or workers' democracy (probably durutti and mk12 agree with me on the last two!)

However, at this point we get mk12 saying because I don't reject all of Lenin and Trotsky I must somehow be a hypocrite and presumably lying about my support for workers' democracy and also worse hawking a corpse! This method of argumentation seems very sectarian to me. We can surely have disagreements and even discussions about aspect of history without bringing every possible subject into this disagreement. It seems alsmost McCarthyist to me- don't believe these dirty reds! Sorry if that seems unfair but it's how it comes across.


The thing is whilst I think there are many genuine things to learn from the Russian revolution, from the self-organisation of the working class into a combat party and into supremely democratic worker' councils and all the rest of it, I'm not for making every political argument about Lenin. I'll leave that to others.

Perhaps, though we should just discuss something else for now.

Back on the subject of the thread, I think that whilst these debates are probably not best had through the rubric of educational pyschology if there is a parallel it's that people learn best by teaching ourselves and this applies as much to politics and collective struggle as any other arena-I think we'd agree on this.
 
I haven't said you're lying about supporting workers' democracy. I just think it's hypocritical for you to, on the one hand, talk about workers' taking power themselves and managing society, and on the other hand, claiming Lenin and the Bolsheviks tried to implement this. It flies in the face of facts.

And it's not some irrelevant debate on history. As durruti02 said, "These are not tactical errors but fundamental errors that have plagued the left EVER since and lead directly to todays alienation of 'party' and class." This mentality of leaders and led, professional revolutionaries and 'the masses', 'them' and 'us', is one of the most important reasons for the left's failure. PR do not seem to have broken at all from this mentality, regardless of how many times you stick "workers democracy" into your posts.
 
urbanrevolt said:
You completely misrepresent or misunderstand my position but I see no point in continuing an exchange based on this
urban mate i think that is a very unfair response to mks last post .. we can see where you are coming from but as he says it DOES appear to fly in the face of thefacts from 1905 to say 1921 .. leninism is key .. it is the problem .. ( NOT marxism which is fine) .. sure learn from leninism but it is alienation .. it is elitism .. it is state capitalism .. it is totalitarianism .. it is all that is wrong with the left .. and as mk states all the evidence is that lenin was against workers democracy .. we are still sufferring from this .. we really do need a clean break .. and we have NO need to refer always to lenin and democratic centralism as if there are NO other historical currents .. as if there was no winstanley no levelllers no communards no luxenbourg no sylvia pankhurst no ILP no dunayevskaya no clr james no NLR no Daniel cohn bendit no negri etc etc

simpthere is NO need to root itself in any one tendancy .. and it is tje obsession of teh left to do this .. like martial arts clubs or holy grail freaks claiming linegae heritage ancestry .. so fkn what!!! it does not matter .. what does matter is that this leninist current is bequethed us a rupture of pary and class .. it has been disasterous for the left
 
durruti02 said:
urban mate i think that is a very unfair response to mks last post .. we can see where you are coming from but as he says it DOES appear to fly in the face of thefacts from 1905 to say 1921 ..

I agree with quite a bit of what you say. My response to mk though is that he _i'm sorry to say but it's true I think- misrepresents my position based on the fact that I'm a member of a group which does say there are positives we can learn from the Bolsheviks- as well as problems- and then accuses me of being hypocritical and TOTALLY ignoring ALL the points I've actually made e.g.

urbanrevolt said:
people learn best by teaching ourselves and this applies as much to politics and collective struggle as any other arena-

which I think you and he would agree with, n'est pas?
 
but of course I was probably a tad tetchy- it s a bit much though withe my position being misrepresented on the basis of stereotypes.

I'm not some kind of automatom. You can't just read off a political line based on someone's membership of a group. Anyway gotta go and watch last episode of Heroes on BBC2
 
urbanrevolt: I do not know you personally, all I know is you are a member of a Trotskyist organisation. So of course when debating these types of things with you, I have to assume you have all the basic trotskyist positions. Sorry if this isn't the case.
 
mm... but may be our understanding of the 'basic' traditions is different.

I will think about it more but it is best I think to debate what people say rather than what you assume they're saying or if you suspect particualr thinking draw it out by asking questions rather than assuming
 
OK - what do we assume is wrong then? It seems you accept that Leninism in power shot workers, effectively removed all democratic accountability of the leaders, instituted a dictatorship of one party, and introduced strict, hierarchical discipline in workplaces. Is that right then?
 
Certainly all of these are factors.

The biggest and most catastrophic mistake, directly hastening the degeneration of the revolution, was the suppression of democracy- in the party- in the factories, the banning of any parties except those actively engaged in armed struggle for the restoration of capitalism.

There were of course powerful material constraints- an isolated economically devastated country devastated by war then almost immediately launched into civil war- the difficulties of working class rule and emancipation in this situation should of course not be underestimated. But neither are they in any sense excuses for policies which directly contributed to the revolution’s defeat. However, to a large extent Lenin I think did underestimate the difficulties comparing running an economy to running a post office if I remember correctly and thus underestimated the absolute necessity of workers’ democracy, factory and neighbourhood committees in negotiating the tending to infinity complexity of any reasonable sized economy. Centralised plans can only work when they are oiled by devolved democratic decision making right down to the level of soviets (workers’ councils) and factory, office or other workplace democratic forum.

The failure of the international revolution led to an increasing and ultimately counter-productive over-insistence on discipline to protect the revolution. Discipline was indeed needed but should have been imposed collectively by democratic diktat not by the party substituting itself for the class.

Similarly, in a situation of civil war resolute discipline is needed with resolute democracy- discipline imposed by councils of soldiers with election and recall of officers (all basic non-contentious socialist principles)

Of course extreme economic hardship, famine and crisis, make all these aspects of workers’ democracy very hard to implement but actually make them all the more essential as without them there is a very real risk that the revolution will be lost either to bourgeois or bureaucratic counter-revolution.

The lessons of October are that workers’ democracy is not an optional bolt-on extra or a luxury that can be postponed till the good times come but absolutely essential.

So far I’d suspect we’d agree.

However, where I think you mk12 put forward a simplistic analysis that could actually be in danger of not learning the lessons is by maintaining that Lenin and Trotsky were somehow evil manipulators from the start intent on stealing the revolution.

If life were so simple we could easily avoid that fate. Is it not at least possible and actually may be far more plausible that many genuine revolutionists who believed in the revolution- who sincerely believed in the ability and desirability of the working class to manage society nevertheless fell for the temptation to take short cuts, what seemed to them deeply regrettable and very necessary shortcuts to defend the revolution. Unless you acknowledge this then when the temptation comes to take those short cuts we won’t be ready to point out why those short cuts are in fact death by a thousand cuts to the very viability of the revolution itself.

I think the evidence is that in the wake of the February revolution there was an explosion of workers’ democracy of democratic forums, to precisely take forward the struggle for working class self-emancipation in every part and aspect of society. The Bolsheviks had their critics and indeed at times they may be underestimated the necessity of working class management and certainly much of Russian and much Marxist discourse has been scarred by overbearing arrogance, rudeness, and at times even manipulation.

But I think on balance that the Russian revolutions of February and October were overwhelmingly democratic. It led to a marvellous and in many ways inspiring mobilisation and explosion of working class creativity, of workers changing things from below. This self-activity of the workers is the essence of revolution that should be defended and extended.

If we recognise that the Bolsheviks won leadership in and through this democracy – then we are truly recognising the true scale of the problem
Because even this can degenerate into something the very opposite of socialism and liberation.

If instead we see it as a story of simple villains and heroes we risk simplifying the complexity of history and possible futures as lived by real flesh and blood people making decisions in almost unimaginably difficult circumstances. Then we can say- even when you are very genuine- don’t for a moment be tempted to compromise on the bottom line of the revolution- the democracy and self-activity of the masses.

If this is what being a socialist means then I plead guilty!
 
I can't disagree with any of that - it's a solid, anti-Leninist, liberatarian analysis of the Russian revolution. Urbanrevolt has successfully shaken off his trotskyism ;)

I don't think I have ever argued that it was all Lenin and Trotsky's fault. I think the Bolshevik mentality was one of the various causes of degeneration of the revolution. After all, they did become the leading (and only!) party in the country after 1917, and the Central Committee virtually ruled by decree. I do, however, believe that if a party organised on the Bolshevik basis, aiming to take power alone, then it'll inevitably gravitate towards a dictatorship over the proletariat, not of the proletariat (to use the marxist jargon). The civil war, although a major factor in the revolution's demise, simply sped up the centralising and authoritarian tendencies inherent in Leninism. Even Trotsky admitted this when he argued against those who thought that one-man management was simply a temporary, extradordinary measure because of the civil war.
 
I wouldn;t go that far myself. I think that the Bolsheviks pre-October were far more democratic than given credit for either by the bourgeois or the subsequent Stalinist counter-revolution - mistakes,fatal errors even-by the Bolshevik leaders paved the way for this counter-revolution but the key lesson is to defend workers' democracy not as an addpon luxiry but something fundamental.

If you want to call that by a different name OK.

Which ever the main point is to organise democratically and support the emancipation of the working class by the working class.
 
so though urban :D to return to the OP , IF we siad that we agreed that facilitation and humanistic education methods were the best COULD we say that ANY left parties follow this practise?

it seems to me most do the opposite .. a very top down model where all the answers come from teachers/cadre .. actually the idea of lerning from struggle is key though .. though the swp always nowadays seem to reduce that to 'when there is a struggle the best workers will look to us for answers'
 
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