Parenting/Educational Psychology and Politics .. is there a link?

[durruti02]

I raised this before on a thread and no one bit so

Parenting and educational / Child psychology looks at how best ideas are taught to children .. there is and has been for decades been a fierces debate between more humanist strategies and more hierarchical strategies ...

and if there is a link between these ideas and getting across ideas at the political level it seems to me that the left use the most reactionary and backward strategies .. the most hierarchical, the most know it all, the least humanist ..

does child psychology/humanists parenting teach us that political activists relationship wiith the mass of people ALSO need to be fundamentally different to the current leftism status quo?

 

[mk12]

The mass of people aren't kids, and the politicos are not the teachers.

 

[durruti02]

The mass of people aren't kids, and the politicos are not the teachers.

true but the left behave that that were so .. and the point of humanist parenting and teaching is that it tries to get rid of that old division .. which er is my general point that politicos have the wrong relationship with non politicos

 

[urbanrevolt]

I'm not entriely sure what you mean here, durrutti.

I think there are pedagogical issues involved. Pedagogy meaning theory of learning, though its etymology does mean leading the child which should of course be the opposite of what critical participatory learning is about!

Granted as mk says people aren't kids and the political activists are not teachers but then the best pedagogy treats children and adults as people who are active learners making up their own minds and sees a teacher as a co-learner (particualrly in adult education but I think can be laregely adapted for aspects of child education though there are of course some differences).

However, th ebit I don't get is how the left is heirarchical.

If we are in a cmapaign or union struggle or a stuggle over political rights or whatever then all the participatants are leaning together what is most effective, how can we mobilise support, what decisions should be made- all this in a frank open and democratic discussion with votes to decide policy.

If I as a political activist want to bring some experience I've had from other cmapaigns or historical events then of course I can and should then I bring these forward as suggestions and they're discussed, voted on, implemented etc.

It seems to me this model of workers' democracy as open, participatory and equal is a good model for pedagogy.

 

[Spion]

I raised this before on a thread and no one bit so

I'm not surprised. You're so vague. What are these different methods you speak about?

I see no alternative to saying what you think, to which people can agree or disagree.

 

[mk12]

It seems to me this model of workers' democracy as open, participatory and equal is a good model for pedagogy.

Children's control of the school, they elect the teachers and can recall them whenever they want?

 

[urbanrevolt]

OK I probably should have said workers' democracy is a good model of adults learning together as equals, fellow learners

In schools and colleges I think the students should have a lot of say on what happens in the classroom and in the curriculum but obviously there are all sorts of issues to be considered- I wouldn't be for the right of students to dismiss their teachers for example on a majority vote, though we should be working towards a system where schools, colleges and other services are run democratically and perhaps under a socialist system of workers' control and managment across society you could have that!

 

[mk12]

I am in a family full of teachers and I enjoy talking about stuff like this. I think that kids should be able to choose what some of the school budget is spent on - what sports facilities kids want etc.

 

[durruti02]

I'm not surprised. You're so vague. What are these different methods you speak about?

I see no alternative to saying what you think, to which people can agree or disagree.

i do not want you to agree or disagree! i thought this was about debate/ discussion .. and yes sorry no links ( see below) .. have a google/dig around it yourself .. you want me to be your teacher?? sorry only joking .. actually what urbanrev has said is good .. he's a teacher i think so will have studied this .. though i disagree with what he says about teh left

links? ivan illich, paolo freire, anything from Lib Ed, carl rogers etc


"More challenging is Freire's strong aversion to the teacher-student dichotomy. This dichotomy is admitted in Rousseau and constrained in Dewey, but Freire comes close to insisting that it should be completely abolished. This is hard to imagine in absolute terms, since there must be some enactment of the teacher-student relationship in the parent-child relationship, but what Freire suggests is that a deep reciprocity be inserted into our notions of teacher and student. Freire wants us to think in terms of teacher-student and student-teacher; that is, a teacher who learns and a learner who teaches, as the basic roles of classroom participation.

This is one of the few attempts anywhere to implement something like democracy as an educational method and not merely a goal of democratic education. Even Dewey, for whom democracy was a touchstone, did not integrate democratic practices fully into his methods, though this was in part a function of Dewey's attitudes toward individuality. .."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Freire

so again coming back to the left .. the left does NOT learn AFAICS .. it comes with ready written dogma ..

 

[durruti02]

I'm not entriely sure what you mean here, durrutti.

I think there are pedagogical issues involved. Pedagogy meaning theory of learning, though its etymology does mean leading the child which should of course be the opposite of what critical participatory learning is about!

Granted as mk says people aren't kids and the political activists are not teachers but then the best pedagogy treats children and adults as people who are active learners making up their own minds and sees a teacher as a co-learner (particualrly in adult education but I think can be laregely adapted for aspects of child education though there are of course some differences).

However, th ebit I don't get is how the left is heirarchical.

If we are in a cmapaign or union struggle or a stuggle over political rights or whatever then all the participatants are leaning together what is most effective, how can we mobilise support, what decisions should be made- all this in a frank open and democratic discussion with votes to decide policy.

If I as a political activist want to bring some experience I've had from other cmapaigns or historical events then of course I can and should then I bring these forward as suggestions and they're discussed, voted on, implemented etc.

It seems to me this model of workers' democracy as open, participatory and equal is a good model for pedagogy.

sorry as spion points out i was vague .. see my second post and links .. and the freire stuff particularly

i do though find your impression of the left at odds with mine and most i know .. i do not see it as democratic as you suggest at all .. i see it dogmatic and undemocratic ( p.s. you are in london? .. i'll pm you soon) .. to me leninism is teh opposite of what you descibe in its theories and practice

so yes i agree with yor lasty para .. but i disagree that this is the practice of the left ..

 

[durruti02]

OK I probably should have said workers' democracy is a good model of adults learning together as equals, fellow learners

In schools and colleges I think the students should have a lot of say on what happens in the classroom and in the curriculum but obviously there are all sorts of issues to be considered- I wouldn't be for the right of students to dismiss their teachers for example on a majority vote, though we should be working towards a system where schools, colleges and other services are run democratically and perhaps under a socialist system of workers' control and managment across society you could have that!

"I wouldn't be for the right of students to dismiss their teachers for example on a majority vote" .. why not?

 

[chymaera]

I raised this before on a thread and no one bit so

I am not surprised. Can you translate it into English.

 

[durruti02]

I am not surprised. Can you translate it into English.

thats hard! it all intelectual!

basically it is that trad parenting/teaching is very top down and hierarchical .. and i am alledging that leninism copies this

and so radical parenting/teaching tries to change this to an equal relationship .. and this is what is argue the left/@ should also do

that more straight forward?

 

[chymaera]

that more straight forward?

No.

 

[Spion]

basically it is that trad parenting/teaching is very top down and hierarchical .. and i am alledging that leninism copies this

I just can't see what alternative there is to saying what you think and at that point whoever is your audience agrees or disagrees.

Worker 1: "What's your policy in this time of crisis?"
Worker 2: "Bread, peace and land"
Worker 1: "Naaah, that's shit/Yes, I agree with that - I'll join you in trying to convince others"

 

[durruti02]

No.

you lost me too .. that is pretty straight forward what i just wrote .. what is it you do not get? teh parenting educational bit or link to leninism bit?

 

[durruti02]

I just can't see what alternative there is to saying what you think and at that point whoever is your audience agrees or disagrees.

Worker 1: "What's your policy in this time of crisis?"
Worker 2: "Bread, peace and land"
Worker 1: "Naaah, that's shit/Yes, I agree with that - I'll join you in trying to convince others"

ok .. there is a link with the theory and practice of leninism ( and alos much of @ism) with backward and top down educational/parenting/child psychology that has got us nowhere and indeed the children and parents/teachers no longer speak to each other!

humanist educational/parenting/child psychology suggest a much better way forward

agree or disagree

 

[Spion]

Agree or ? Neither - I think you're talking shite, and you've failed to marshall any kind of argument and give examples of what you mean

And, if you think that the failure of 'the left' is just down to the way it disemminates ideas, then to be frank, I think you're wa-a-a-a-a-y off.

Also, despite your oh-so-not-vanguardist protestations, I think it's quite elitist to suggest we've got to tart up what we think for our audience.

Once again, I just can't see what alternative there is to saying what you think and at that point whoever is your audience agrees or disagrees.

Worker 1: "What's your policy in this time of crisis?"
Worker 2: "Bread, peace and land"
Worker 1: "Naaah, that's shit/Yes, I agree with that - I'll join you in trying to convince others"

How you come up with a position on something is another question entirely but once you have you should be very clear what it is, IMO

 

[urbanrevolt]

durutti- I live in Manchester I'm afraid. Some of the left are indeed dogmatic etc. but I think you may exaggerate somewhat- certainly campaigns I've been involved in normally are run pretty democratically- especially if activists insist on it and there are a number of campaigns and struggles that I could point to- all local.

I wouldn't support under the current system students being able to vote to put a teacher out of her/his job because I think the struggle for permanent contracts is important so we can get strong union groups in schools/ colleges to work alongside students and parents in anti-privatisation campaigns etc. As an ideal though to fight for education controlled by the workers and service users I'm not against it.

However, if students had enough concerns about a teacher to vote for him/her to be replaced this obviously should be investigated with the member of staff given extra support/ retraining and in extreme cases perhaps where there was no improvement at all or there are serious allegations e.g. abuse then obviously they should be moved/ dismissed.

Actually I think giving students far more voice and democracy in the here and now is extremely important and can lead to both improvements in the short term and mobilising service users to work alonside workers to democratise services/ education etc.

 

[chymaera]

you lost me too .. that is pretty straight forward what i just wrote .. what is it you do not get? teh parenting educational bit or link to leninism bit?

Have you sniffed a lot of glue?

 

[durruti02]

durutti- I live in Manchester I'm afraid. Some of the left are indeed dogmatic etc. but I think you may exaggerate somewhat- certainly campaigns I've been involved in normally are run pretty democratically- especially if activists insist on it and there are a number of campaigns and struggles that I could point to- all local.

I wouldn't support under the current system students being able to vote to put a teacher out of her/his job because I think the struggle for permanent contracts is important so we can get strong union groups in schools/ colleges to work alongside students and parents in anti-privatisation campaigns etc. As an ideal though to fight for education controlled by the workers and service users I'm not against it.

However, if students had enough concerns about a teacher to vote for him/her to be replaced this obviously should be investigated with the member of staff given extra support/ retraining and in extreme cases perhaps where there was no improvement at all or there are serious allegations e.g. abuse then obviously they should be moved/ dismissed.

Actually I think giving students far more voice and democracy in the here and now is extremely important and can lead to both improvements in the short term and mobilising service users to work alonside workers to democratise services/ education etc.

shame .. but lucky you! london is the worst city politically as it is the most sectarian imho .. my experinace is that outside of london people work together far better

however i still believe that the link remains between what i describe and leninism .. your politics iterest me .. do they reflect teh org you are in or are you a bit of free agent?

do you want to start a school thread .. could be interesting??

 

[urbanrevolt]

I would certainly contriute to a school thread. Not sure if I have time to do much on it tho'.

I may be a bot of a free agent but on the other hand the organisation I'm in does say we have to rethink marxism, use a new language, basically reinvent it all and of course that could include re-evaluating and even rejecting some of its ideas
"But we cannot just do this “on our own” we must consciously work in a new way. We must involve supporters and other socialists sympathetic to our aims in all aspects of our organisation, in contributing to the journal, participating in aggregates, branch and open meetings, working with us in the trade unions and united fronts. We should be open about not having “all the answers”, being willing to learn, to experiment, to alter our ideas. However we do have a programmatic heritage (Trotskyist Manifesto, Founding Principles etc) and a body of work and ongoing analysis in PR that we stand by. The more forces we can draw into discussion about and the development of our positions, even if in terms of clarifying our differences, the stronger our politics will become. We must make a conscious effort to break out of the “secret society with strange rituals to get in” image which infects the small groups on the far left."

http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=1757

Having said that I am not particualrly advocating that people join PR as the main way forward- obviously we'd be glad to have people but the idea of getting change through promoting one group is obviously a lot of rubbish.

We have to be far more flexible and creative than that.

I'll try and post on school thing but cnanot access this site at work and ma very busy unfortunately

 

[tbaldwin]

Agree or ? Neither - I think you're talking shite, and you've failed to marshall any kind of argument and give examples of what you mean

And, if you think that the failure of 'the left' is just down to the way it disemminates ideas, then to be frank, I think you're wa-a-a-a-a-y off.

Also, despite your oh-so-not-vanguardist protestations, I think it's quite elitist to suggest we've got to tart up what we think for our audience.

Once again, I just can't see what alternative there is to saying what you think and at that point whoever is your audience agrees or disagrees.

Worker 1: "What's your policy in this time of crisis?"
Worker 2: "Bread, peace and land"
Worker 1: "Naaah, that's shit/Yes, I agree with that - I'll join you in trying to convince others"

How you come up with a position on something is another question entirely but once you have you should be very clear what it is, IMO

I think there is more to this thread than you give it credit for.
The Left does have a real problem, with how it disseminates ideas as you put it.
And it has a real problem that instead of representing the views of the majority it attempts to tell the majority what they should think and do.
I really dont agree with the people who call themselves Socialists,who believe in Socialism from above.
The people who insist that they are the real socialists BUT that people are just not ready for democracy and socialism...It stinks of bullshit....And until the smell goes....Left groups will go nowhere...

 

[Fruitloop]

Change the fucking record why don't ya?

 

[mk12]

I just can't see what alternative there is to saying what you think and at that point whoever is your audience agrees or disagrees.

Worker 1: "What's your policy in this time of crisis?"
Worker 2: "Bread, peace and land"
Worker 1: "Naaah, that's shit/Yes, I agree with that - I'll join you in trying to convince others"

That's how the Russian Revolution happened

"Lenin, what do we need?"
"Bread, peace and land"
"He's right, let's storm the winter palace".

 

[durruti02]

kid asks for more control over their lives .. trad parent says don't be silly .. you are not mature/educated/responsable enough

durruti says people in / communities should have more control over their lives .. trad left say don't be silly .. people are not mature/educated/responsable enough ..

 

[urbanrevolt]

I'm not sure the trad left says this at all- can you give any examples?

 

[durruti02]

I'm not sure the trad left says this at all- can you give any examples?

been said on here many many times .. re tenant control or community control .. it is always suggested that communities would be reactionary and it is said similarly about workers control and the closed shop that it would be corrupt .. talk of racism vigilantes etc

i think there is a combination of real (and understandable) cynicism, of lenins old 'the w/c is only capable of acheiving trade union conciousness' and a patronising middle class attitude

 

[Fruitloop]

Shit you really are turning into tbaldwin. It must be infectious.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Well I disagree with durutti here- mainly.

There are many problems with the left and we need to face up to the massive crisis the left faces. However, to dichotimise it like tihs isn't that helpful. I've got to go out collect my partenr from work, cook the tea etc but I'll return to this in a day or two.