Panoroma on welfare reform: a travesty of journalism?

[tarannau]

Ah bless. We have a new candidate for try-hard muppet of the week.

 

[Nigel]

Yes I know how patronising some social workers are. I also know there are some people so mentally damaged they would not even be able to understand the instructions to a task.
You'd also have a hard time getting some of the more severe end of the autistic spectrum to comply.


Besides what you described is more like OT than paid work which is a bit different and certainly not what our gov is proposing.

People involved got paid a regular wage.
I can understand the concerns you have, however in my opinion people in this situation just want to be treated normally, as anyone else, leaving people within the benefit system is not the answer, and the way most of these people are treated is diabolical and getting worse.

 

[Nigel]

I hope you're declaring it. I'd hate to think that a scrounger-hating upright citizen like yourself was ripping off the taxpayer.

I have'nt thratened you at all.
There are far more deserving people than you in the world to go looking for in that way.

In other words, you've gone through a training programme. Well done. I hope your business succeeds.

Unfortunately this is not the 1980's, you'll be lucky to get on anything worthwile from the dole. Was trying to blag forklift, and back end for JCB, by getting agencies to say they will employ me if I get these tickets, but has'nt come to anything. They even made some poor girl pay for a CSCS card to fob her off on minimum wage jobs labouring.

Had to pay out of my hard earned savings and get a loan I'm afraid, might be able to claim it back through CIS status, or self-employment.

 

[brasicritique]

Panorama is shit..

exactly

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

I worked and stayed voluntarily in Ploughshares community and used to work as a Care Assistant & Auxillary Nurse several lifetimes ago, with mentally handicapped & in Geratology. Some of the (for a better word), patients were in such a position, but the group accomodated them and they were given tasks which they could do under supervision.

I recentely worked in maintenance in the Radcliffe Infimary(Oxford), the way patients in Geratology were treated there was terrible, with no stimulus whatsoever. Also watching the way various social worker types speak to people who are mentally handicapped, very patronising and condescending, almost in the process of infantalising these people is not
positive.

Some of the ideas around welfare in Colin Wards Books: Anarchy In Action, Social Policy which I have re-read after about a decade are very interesting and which I would sympathise with.

I'm very surprised that you claim to have worked with what i assume are learning disabled people, if you call them "handicapped".

That terminology went out with the ark and is exactly the kind of condescension that you accuse others of. You may care to have a read through this to drag your language and attitudes forward into the 21st C?

 

[Nigel]

It was a long time ago. Mainly Downs Syndrome.
Thanx for the link.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Unfortunately this is not the 1980's, you'll be lucky to get on anything worthwile from the dole. Was trying to blag forklift...

You'd be lucky. They take one look at the cost of the test and get chest pains.

...and back end for JCB, by getting agencies to say they will employ me if I get these tickets, but has'nt come to anything. They even made some poor girl pay for a CSCS card to fob her off on minimum wage jobs labouring.

Had to pay out of my hard earned savings and get a loan I'm afraid, might be able to claim it back through CIS status, or self-employment.

Daft thing is that while you can get "Career Development" loans for academic shit, you can't get similar for vocational training, even complex stuff that gets you a B.Eng at the end of it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

People involved got paid a regular wage.
I can understand the concerns you have, however in my opinion people in this situation just want to be treated normally, as anyone else, leaving people within the benefit system is not the answer, and the way most of these people are treated is diabolical and getting worse.

You have to bear in mind that what's needed is a system that treats everyone as an individual, and fits any training to the needs of the individual.

What we've got, of course, is a system that shoehorns people into unnecessary, expensive and pointless training. A system that actually has a "churn" figure of about 25%. Just think of all that lovely money going into the pockets of the fuck-heads who provide that training.

Depressing, isn't it?

 

[Urbanblues]

...leaving people within the benefit system is not the answer

Nigel, you maintain “...leaving people within the benefit system is not the answer”. Therefore, what do you propose to do with someone like me?

I have several disabilities; the main one, which leaves me in chronic pain; while another causes me to urinate around 20 times over a 24-hour period. Put the two together; and, you’ll appreciate I have at best fractured sleep patterns; at worse, I may go a couple of days without sleep. On other days I wake up with my lower back in spasm – that is, the muscles are locked and I cannot maintain an upright position; and, because I don’t live in a fully accessible flat, I can’t use my wheelchair. On such occasions, I literally crawl to the toilet.

In the first instance, how could I hold down a job if I’m physically exhausted through lack of sleep – this wouldn’t be an occasional occurrence; but, would happen a couple of times a week. In the second instance, would an employer accept me phoning in at say, 8:30 am to tell him I’m in spasm; but, may be in at lunchtime, or whenever the muscles decide to release me from their grip?

Flexible working hours has been suggested as a solution to me. With the levels of pain I experience, I doubt I’d be able to work for more than about 4-hours a day, for 4-days a week. From getting up in the morning, to being ready to leave the house, takes anything from 2-3 hours; add to this, say 45-60 minutes travelling to work. This would mean I’d be getting up at around 5 am.

When I’m in spasm, it can take between 2 and 4 hours for the spasms to fully subside. By this time, I’m physically exhausted; so, the idea I could go into work after lunch and work my hours would not be feasible – even on a good day my performance is markedly low after midday.

Even putting aside the inability to commit myself to turning up on time; on any given day; or, indeed week – and, when I do turn up for a 4-hour day, having to take toilet breaks every 40-minutes, or so; how would I live on a 16-hour, or often less, week?

At the moment my income is around £263 per week. Once I deduct Motability, my share of the rent and the money I pay towards care, I’m left with £131. Even with tax credits and HB, I’d not be left with anything like £130 per week.

But, now comes the interesting bit. Once I’m forced into a job; it wouldn’t be too long before my employer let me go – oh, HR would explain that I was unsuitable and therefore not extend my contract beyond the probationary period.

Where does leave me? I’ll tell you where. It leaves me on a merry-go-round of short-term employment and JSA, with the odd course thrown in. It may well leave me sacked from a job; and, as a result stripped of benefits. Whichever way I look at it; it leaves me fucked.

So, I’ll selfishly disagree with you Nigel; and, say most forcefully “Leaving this person on benefits is the answer”!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nigel, you maintain “...leaving people within the benefit system is not the answer”. Therefore, what do you propose to do with someone like me?

I have several disabilities; the main one, which leaves me in chronic pain; while another causes me to urinate around 20 times over a 24-hour period. Put the two together; and, you’ll appreciate I have at best fractured sleep patterns; at worse, I may go a couple of days without sleep. On other days I wake up with my lower back in spasm – that is, the muscles are locked and I cannot maintain an upright position; and, because I don’t live in a fully accessible flat, I can’t use my wheelchair. On such occasions, I literally crawl to the toilet.

In the first instance, how could I hold down a job if I’m physically exhausted through lack of sleep – this wouldn’t be an occasional occurrence; but, would happen a couple of times a week. In the second instance, would an employer accept me phoning in at say, 8:30 am to tell him I’m in spasm; but, may be in at lunchtime, or whenever the muscles decide to release me from their grip?

Flexible working hours has been suggested as a solution to me. With the levels of pain I experience, I doubt I’d be able to work for more than about 4-hours a day, for 4-days a week. From getting up in the morning, to being ready to leave the house, takes anything from 2-3 hours; add to this, say 45-60 minutes travelling to work. This would mean I’d be getting up at around 5 am.

When I’m in spasm, it can take between 2 and 4 hours for the spasms to fully subside. By this time, I’m physically exhausted; so, the idea I could go into work after lunch and work my hours would not be feasible – even on a good day my performance is markedly low after midday.

Even putting aside the inability to commit myself to turning up on time; on any given day; or, indeed week – and, when I do turn up for a 4-hour day, having to take toilet breaks every 40-minutes, or so; how would I live on a 16-hour, or often less, week?

At the moment my income is around £263 per week. Once I deduct Motability, my share of the rent and the money I pay towards care, I’m left with £131. Even with tax credits and HB, I’d not be left with anything like £130 per week.

But, now comes the interesting bit. Once I’m forced into a job; it wouldn’t be too long before my employer let me go – oh, HR would explain that I was unsuitable and therefore not extend my contract beyond the probationary period.

Where does leave me? I’ll tell you where. It leaves me on a merry-go-round of short-term employment and JSA, with the odd course thrown in. It may well leave me sacked from a job; and, as a result stripped of benefits. Whichever way I look at it; it leaves me fucked.

So, I’ll selfishly disagree with you Nigel; and, say most forcefully “Leaving this person on benefits is the answer”!

^^^^What smiler said.

 

[_angel_]

It was a long time ago. Mainly Downs Syndrome.
Thanx for the link.

AFAIK most people with downs syndrome are able to live and work normally (someone correct me if I'm wrong) You will struggle to get severely autistic or otherwise brain damaged people to be able to 'work'.

Also what urbanblues said. You can't pretend that chronically sick people can just 'will' their conditions away.

 

[Nigel]

Nigel, you maintain “...leaving people within the benefit system is not the answer”. Therefore, what do you propose to do with someone like me?

I have several disabilities; the main one, which leaves me in chronic pain; while another causes me to urinate around 20 times over a 24-hour period. Put the two together; and, you’ll appreciate I have at best fractured sleep patterns; at worse, I may go a couple of days without sleep. On other days I wake up with my lower back in spasm – that is, the muscles are locked and I cannot maintain an upright position; and, because I don’t live in a fully accessible flat, I can’t use my wheelchair. On such occasions, I literally crawl to the toilet.

In the first instance, how could I hold down a job if I’m physically exhausted through lack of sleep – this wouldn’t be an occasional occurrence; but, would happen a couple of times a week. In the second instance, would an employer accept me phoning in at say, 8:30 am to tell him I’m in spasm; but, may be in at lunchtime, or whenever the muscles decide to release me from their grip?

Flexible working hours has been suggested as a solution to me. With the levels of pain I experience, I doubt I’d be able to work for more than about 4-hours a day, for 4-days a week. From getting up in the morning, to being ready to leave the house, takes anything from 2-3 hours; add to this, say 45-60 minutes travelling to work. This would mean I’d be getting up at around 5 am.

When I’m in spasm, it can take between 2 and 4 hours for the spasms to fully subside. By this time, I’m physically exhausted; so, the idea I could go into work after lunch and work my hours would not be feasible – even on a good day my performance is markedly low after midday.

Even putting aside the inability to commit myself to turning up on time; on any given day; or, indeed week – and, when I do turn up for a 4-hour day, having to take toilet breaks every 40-minutes, or so; how would I live on a 16-hour, or often less, week?

At the moment my income is around £263 per week. Once I deduct Motability, my share of the rent and the money I pay towards care, I’m left with £131. Even with tax credits and HB, I’d not be left with anything like £130 per week.

But, now comes the interesting bit. Once I’m forced into a job; it wouldn’t be too long before my employer let me go – oh, HR would explain that I was unsuitable and therefore not extend my contract beyond the probationary period.

Where does leave me? I’ll tell you where. It leaves me on a merry-go-round of short-term employment and JSA, with the odd course thrown in. It may well leave me sacked from a job; and, as a result stripped of benefits. Whichever way I look at it; it leaves me fucked.

So, I’ll selfishly disagree with you Nigel; and, say most forcefully “Leaving this person on benefits is the answer”!

You've obviously got basic I.T. skills, maybe Admin Work?¬!
So you'd feel better in yourself if you were doing productive work, and earning you own way rather than living off benefits.

 

[Nigel]

AFAIK most people with downs syndrome are able to live and work normally (someone correct me if I'm wrong) You will struggle to get severely autistic or otherwise brain damaged people to be able to 'work'.

Also what urbanblues said. You can't pretend that chronically sick people can just 'will' their conditions away.

Beg to Differ.
Even if this was the case you could create environments in which they could do productive work, or help the community.

If their ailments are too severe then they should get some allowance, however with the amount of people claiming DLA or Incapacity Benefit, I would expect them to be in a minority. These have become a scam exploited & benefitting dole scroungers and agencies of the Care Industry, which is leading to the degeneration of society as a whole.

Capitalism cannot give full employment.
So it finds ways to justify its inadequacies.
Full employment and decent training for work should be a transitional demand in any group struggling for the rights of unemployed workers primarily then other claimants.

 

[Urbanblues]

You've obviously got basic I.T. skills, maybe Admin Work?¬!

Nigel, put me in touch with an employer who would allow me to wander into work as and when my condition permits; most weeks, I reckon I’d manage anything up to 8 or 10 hours – but, I’d need to be paid 16 hours. As for pay; in order to live a very frugal life, I couldn’t work for less than £30 per hour – oh, I’ve got basic IT skills...

Just PM the information to me, please.

 

[Urbanblues]

Beg to Differ.
Even if this was the case you could create environments in which they could do productive work, or help the community.

Go ahead Nigel, create conditions that would enable me to more fully participate in a working environment, whether it be paid work or in the community.

By the way. If I can’t operate productively in the paid workplace; how exactly do you envisage me helping the community? If my disabilities prevent me working; do you suppose they’ll ease up a little to accommodate communal and civic participation? Do you understand the basic concept of chronic conditions? Have you know anything about the unpredictability of pain? Are you familiar with the variability of conditions?

 

[_angel_]

Beg to Differ.
Even if this was the case you could create environments in which they could do productive work, or help the community.

Yes this would be great but this isn't going to be anything the govt will consider because it will cost too much. Also, if you're convinced you could get severely autistic people to do something they don't want to please go and tell my son's school - they're supposed to be the experts and they can't do it.

If their ailments are too severe then they should get some allowance, however with the amount of people claiming DLA or Incapacity Benefit, I would expect them to be in a minority. These have become a scam exploited & benefitting dole scroungers and agencies of the Care Industry, which is leading to the degeneration of society as a whole.
.

So you DO believe some people can't work but like our right wingers express amazement at the fact there are 'too many' as if you know every single persons case - there are more and more severely disabled children now because babies can survive from earlier and earlier and they can keep severely disabled people alive where once they would have died.


By the way, the care industry how you speak of it, by staying home and caring for disabled people carers are saving the govt money from just that. Our govt would rather perpetuate the care industry in the same way they would like to increase childminders being paid for looking after someone else's child, but not paid a wage to look after their own properly.

If the govt wanted more people in work it would mean parents and partners of disabled kids/ people using the 'care industry' to get them back into paid work.

So your attitude is fundamentally at odds with itself.

 

[_angel_]

Do you understand the basic concept of chronic conditions? Have you know anything about the unpredictability of pain? Are you familiar with the variability of conditions?

I doubt it. Like our politicians who have decided there are 'too many' disabled people who they can't believe are really disabled, cos people are like, in wheelchairs for the fun of it because £80 a week is such a tempting lifestyle choice.

 

[Urbanblues]

So you'd feel better in yourself if you were doing productive work, and earning you own way rather than living off benefits.

So you'd feel better in yourself if you were doing productive work, and earning you own way rather than living off benefits.

I’ve done my share of productive work. I’ve earned the benefits I now receive. In fact; I’ve held up my part of the social contract – worked hard when I could; dutifully paid NI and way way above my share of Income Tax.

Therefore, may I suggest Nigel, that you get the fuck off Urban 75 during working hours; and, work that a lot harder in order that I can continue to receive the levels of benefit I deserve – fucking lazy shirking cunt!

 

[Urbanblues]

I doubt it. Like our politicians who have decided there are 'too many' disabled people who they can't believe are really disabled, cos people are like, in wheelchairs for the fun of it because £80 a week is such a tempting lifestyle choice.

I was at the Independent Living lobby in Parliament yesterday. The moment Blunkett opened his mouth I was off!

 

[Urbanblues]

I'm very surprised that you claim to have worked with what i assume are learning disabled people, if you call them "handicapped".

That terminology went out with the ark and is exactly the kind of condescension that you accuse others of. You may care to have a read through this to drag your language and attitudes forward into the 21st C?

The cunt needs dragging out of the 19 century!

 

[_angel_]

I was at the Independent Living lobby in Parliament yesterday. The moment Blunkett opened his mouth I was off!

I am amazed that our government think they can, effectively, set targets on disability!! And that people go along with this 'there are too many of them!!' line. I mean ffs what do they want to do gas people?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nigel, put me in touch with an employer who would allow me to wander into work as and when my condition permits; most weeks, I reckon I’d manage anything up to 8 or 10 hours – but, I’d need to be paid 16 hours. As for pay; in order to live a very frugal life, I couldn’t work for less than £30 per hour – oh, I’ve got basic IT skills...

Just PM the information to me, please.

I've said the same to all the pontificators and "pull your socks up" cocksuckers who come on here shouting the odds, and none of them know where these mythical benificient employers are to be found, oddly enough.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So you'd feel better in yourself if you were doing productive work, and earning you own way rather than living off benefits.

I’ve done my share of productive work. I’ve earned the benefits I now receive. In fact; I’ve held up my part of the social contract – worked hard when I could; dutifully paid NI and way way above my share of Income Tax.

Therefore, may I suggest Nigel, that you get the fuck off Urban 75 during working hours; and, work that a lot harder in order that I can continue to receive the levels of benefit I deserve – fucking lazy shirking cunt!

^^^^What smiler said again.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am amazed that our government think they can, effectively, set targets on disability!! And that people go along with this 'there are too many of them!!' line. I mean ffs what do they want to do gas people?

It's salutary that when federal welfare disability subsidies to states were trimmed in the US under Clinton's first administration, New York state's homeless population almost doubled, the ranks mostly swelled by people with mental health issues or chronic illness.
Of course, the doubling of the homelessness count didn't last long, what with homeless people being more likely to succumb to illness or die.

 

[audiotech]

I am amazed that our government think they can, effectively, set targets on disability!! And that people go along with this 'there are too many of them!!' line. I mean ffs what do they want to do gas people?

Where and who are these people who say 'there are too many of them'?

The hyperbole of the last sentence is just that and doesn't assist your argument in anyway.

 

[audiotech]

The cunt needs dragging out of the 19 century!

Your language is from the time of slavery.

 

[Urbanblues]

Your language is from the time of slavery.

English is from the time of slavery; that's an interesting piece of information. Do you have any other items of interest to impart?

 

[audiotech]

English is from the time of slavery; that's an interesting piece of information. Do you have any other items of interest to impart?

Lots.

 

[Urbanblues]

Where and who are these people who say 'there are too many of them'?

If you look at these links. You will see that there are a lot of people out there who hold exactly the views expressed by _angel_.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/yy_20040513.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7173453.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/jan/24/socialexclusion.money

http://www.epolitix.com/briefings/article-detail/newsarticle/incapacity-benefit-reform-1/

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=740929

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91211-1299452,00.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/main.jhtml?xml=/education/2005/02/17/tepGnben03.xml

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/budget_2008/article3549631.ece

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/0601_cameron.shtml

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-map-Britain-shows-sicknote-culture-end.html

http://www.personneltoday.com/artic...ncapacity-benefit-claims-up-20-in-a-year.html

http://www.labouronline.org/wibs/16...b?PageId=09dfdd1d-e327-2c04-e583-b1b0a05019dc

 

[Urbanblues]

^^^^What smiler said.

What does that mean?