Palestinians unveil new Fog Weapon

[ViolentPanda]

Bearing this in mind, no Israeli is going to roll over and commit national suicide to please the likes of Cemertyone and Garfield , Udo Erasmus and ViolentPanda.

You think that's what I want?

What do you base that spectacularly misinformed opinion on? Surely not on the basis of my previous post to you on this thread, you couldn't be that shallow, could you...?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

You think that's what I want?

What do you base that spectacularly misinformed opinion on? Surely not on the basis of my previous post to you on this thread, you couldn't be that shallow, could you...?

ahem

revisonist apologist wanker...

 

[ViolentPanda]

I can only talk with authority about the original pioneer Zionists (who I have studied at post-grad. level, I don't know so much about modern religious zionists) the first and second wave of pioneers were brave and admirable men and women, who were the founding fathers of the modern state of Israel. They left Russia and other countries in E. Europe where they were simply sick of suffering the pogroms and indignities there, under certain leaderships life was unbearable for Jews, they couldn't study they couldn't buy land, they had to turn to ignoble work and stick to their mainly orthodox lifestyle in Pales of settlement, areas designated for Jews. A few had enough, those with the resources fled to Palestine, and built the first kibbutzim with their hands and became Sabras (named after the cactus, prickly on the outside sweet on the inside) they admired the Arab workers and many donned kefiyah and learned from the Arabs. The Sabra wanted to be everything that the Jew from the Diaspora wasn't, brave, strong, handsome, physical, secular, socialist etc. Was that wrong? No, it wasn't. So, let's not say bad things about 'Zionism' as a whole, I too am not so keen on the nutters from Brooklyn who also wage holy war in the settlements, Zionism as it was in it's pure form, pre-1950 was a good thing, did the Jews not deserve a land only the size of Wales so they wouldn't be murdered, gassed and bullied? People have such short memories... It's no wonder to me why now we have an angry, paranoid country, that's (shall we say) not too worried about how the world sees it. That to me is part of why it's so interesting, Israeli's do not care what 'Europe' thinks of them, they really don't.

Again, if you'd actually read some of the older threads in this forum you'd know that there has often (although not often enough) been an emphasis vis a vis "Zionism" that what is being referred to is the current stream of right-wing Israeli Zionism (almost a "neo-Zionism", you could say) that is supported by the pro-Zionist Christian right in the US and elsewhere, rather than at all streams of historic Zionism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

ahem

I was referring more to the fact that he lumped me in with Cem and his rantings, which I've bollocked him enough for before when he fails to differentiate between Jews and Zionists.

I don't want any Israeli to "roll over and commit suicide" (I've omitted the word "national" that Shogzie used because I haven't been able to work out how an individual could possibly commit "national suicide" ), what I want is for Israeli to treat Palestinians equitably, and for Palestinians to do the same to Israelis.

 

[moono]

Just don't portray yourself as an honest Jew defending his homeland.


Why not?

Because that's not what aggressive Zionism represents.

 

[shogzie]

To ViolentPanda

Unreserved apologies. I erred by including you with the rabid posters on these fora.

I had you confused with someone else on a different thread.

I think you know what I mean by 'national suicide' though.

I will get back to the others later.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Unreserved apologies. I erred by including you with the rabid posters on these fora.

I had you confused with someone else on a different thread.

Fair enough, apology accepted.

I think you know what I mean by 'national suicide' though.

I understand your sentiment, although I don't agree that anyone except a total loon would expect the citizens of Israel to let themselves be murdered.

In my long (oh so very long, at least that's how it feels!) experience, for every "push the Jews into the sea" anti-Semite who tries to shelter under the concept of anti-Zionism, there are hundreds of genuine anti-Zionists who merely want to see an end to expansionism and expropriation, and the formation and enactment of equitable solutions to the questions raised by the Israel/Palestine issue. That means some form of rquivalence between the parties, not one sides' hegemony over the other, or else we just end up with the same problems in 20, 50, 100 years from now.

 

[moono]

or else we just end up with the same problems in 20, 50, 100 years from now.

Unless somebody tries to apply a nuclear solution. Sod employment opportunities for Jewish bricklayers- get the wall torn down now.

Spot the warts.

Here's an article relating to the Zionist terrorists that the Cyclops Society haven't noticed yet;

About 200 Israeli police officers have closed the offices of an anti-Arab group in a West Bank Jewish settlement known for its extremist activity.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/42B8D488-2222-4F99-B9C1-37C0AFEE3837.htm

 

[ViolentPanda]

Unless somebody tries to apply a nuclear solution. Sod employment opportunities for Jewish bricklayers- get the wall torn down now.

I have to admit that when I saw some tv shots of sections of wall being shimmied into place with cranes I did have the following unworthy thought:

"I wonder how many members of the Knesset have shares in cement aggregates and structural steel companies?"

Spot the warts.

Here's an article relating to the Zionist terrorists that the Cyclops Society haven't noticed yet;

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/42B8D488-2222-4F99-B9C1-37C0AFEE3837.htm

Fucking KACH. Pity they're never honest enough to label themselves as what they really are; rightwing racist nutters.

 

[shogzie]

Fair enough, apology accepted.

I understand your sentiment, although I don't agree that anyone except a total loon would expect the citizens of Israel to let themselves be murdered.

In my ...experience, for every "push the Jews into the sea" anti-Semite who tries to shelter under the concept of anti-Zionism, there are hundreds of genuine anti-Zionists who merely want to see an end to expansionism and expropriation,

VP I think your ratio is wildly optimistic but there you go.

Secondly there are many who do want the State of Israel to disappear (and 'commit national suicide') and have stated so very very explicitly on these fora. I cannot understand that you haven't seen that.

As to The Cat - just a total fool. Can't debate but merely resorts to insults and profanities. Either he's unable to engage in rational conversation or he keeps forgetting the anti-psychotics. I didn't 'condescend' to him in a previous post but merely quoted what he said. I certainly would not say that I understand his thoughts as I'm not a psychiatrist. If he is sane then he is merely beneath my condescension.

Moono - you disappoint. I thought I would be able to talk to you but you also resort to well-worn and tired cliches. Not funny, not clever, just boring.

 

[moono]

Moono - you disappoint. I thought I would be able to talk to you but you also resort to well-worn and tired cliches. Not funny, not clever, just boring.

I'm sorry that you find me diametrically opposed to international banditry. However, you'll find War Crimes prisons a tad more boring still.

 

[shogzie]

How droll. A proper comedian.

 

[moono]

As an ex IOF 'border' guard, shogzie, my intention is not to entertain you but to educate.

 

[shogzie]

As an ex IOF 'border' guard, shogzie, my intention is not to entertain you but to educate.

I don't need to be sent for 're-education' thanks.
I've also seen what goes on but I haven't blinded myself.

 

[moono]

Fair enough. 'Not guilty' plea recorded.

Edit; Forgive me. I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I was referring more to the fact that he lumped me in with Cem and his rantings, which I've bollocked him enough for before when he fails to differentiate between Jews and Zionists.

I don't want any Israeli to "roll over and commit suicide" (I've omitted the word "national" that Shogzie used because I haven't been able to work out how an individual could possibly commit "national suicide" ), what I want is for Israeli to treat Palestinians equitably, and for Palestinians to do the same to Israelis.

sorry i still fail to see how this isn't revisionism...

zionism as it is at the moment as an expansionist and illegal action has only been preverlent as a mainstream idea for a releatively short period indeed even through out the 80s sharron was considered a dangerous and extremeist loon with in israel who would have no place in politics. you have only to look in to the historical concept of the current expasionist plans dating back to the 70's when the plans were then consider those of the head banger extemeist minority...

itis utter revisionism to say that the expansionist plans are accepted with in israel and that opposing these is some form of request to negate the israeli state moreover it shows that the poster/troll shogzie has little in common with the average israeli either now or in the past, with their repeated denials of the real on the gorund status...

shogzie do ou wear an orange ribbon?

 

[TAE]

Secondly there are many who do want the State of Israel to disappear (and 'commit national suicide') and have stated so very very explicitly on these fora. I cannot understand that you haven't seen that.

I have to agree with you there.

Many leftists say that the way the state of israel was formed was totally unacceptable and that the whole concept of having a state which is primarily for the jews is fundamentally racist. As such the state should be dismantalled and the palestinians should be given all their land back, it is said.

 

[moono]

the whole concept of having a state which is primarily for the jews is fundamentally racist.

How about 'fundamentally theocratic' ? 'Jewish' is not a race. It's primarily a religion, at best an ethnicity.
That aside, the manifestation of the State of Israel was indeed an extremely bloody and shambolic exercise in mismanagement perpetrated by the fag-end of British empire. Nevertheless, Israel is an entirely legal State ( or will be when it fulfills its commitments to its UN membership ) entitled to enjoy all of the benefits of UN membership according to the borders ascribed to it by the UN.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

i think the concept of an apartide state is a fundamentally racist one and nelson mandala amongst other would agree with the sentament...

if we are tlaking about a populace comprising of majority of the simliar traits that is different for example the majority of peoples in the caribiean are black even though they are not the only race or indeed the indiginous culture however there has never been a culture of systematic expulsion and or exicution of the indiginous peoples with in the caribeain meaning this majority state is acceptable.

when the majority does carry out acts of systematic genocide against the native population this is considered a racist act... austrailia and aboriginies, usa and native americans south afriacans and africans... etc these acts of systemic and unilateral self promotion and subjigation of the indiginous populations can only eve be racist... at it's fundmental precept is do as your are told we know better our civiliseation is better than yours and therefore should be the more dominant your civiliseation (if it is so acknowledged) is considered primative and with out merit to the majority populace of the region.

that is in a nutshell define state racism...

 

[moono]

Segregationist Israelis might like to be considered a 'race', but they're not. Manufacturing a Jewish 'elite' is only racist if it discriminates against a particular race, not because it falsely elevates Jews. That's egotism, self-exaltation, but not racism. The segregationist Jew needs a reason for having a Jewish State and he must not be allowed to create a synthetic racial divide between himself and his Muslim brothers. It's a religious divide, nothing to do with race. Both religions occupied Palestine in relative harmony for generations.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

it is racism no amount of wriggling will get round this fact

rac·ism P Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

 

[moono]

Yes, Garfield, I know what racism is. I'm just trying to point out why it doesn't apply. The problem is sectarian. ( Actually, it's territorial in essence, but I'm trying to make my point)

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yes, Garfield, I know what racism is. I'm just trying to point out why it doesn't apply. The problem is sectarian. ( Actually, it's territorial in essence, but I'm trying to make my point)

but i really does apply ...

the idolocal settlers do beleive they are supierour, the systematic removeal of the word palestinian and it's automatic replacement with the generic word arab is to deny the autonomy of a particular grouping by sayign there is no recognition of you as a seperate entity. This is racsim...

like it or lump it, it is, sectarianism and partisanship is also preverlent but it is realisticly the beleif that there is one group who are preordained to live there and one group who are interlopers which betrays the reality of the situation.

when i met with memebers from a settler band (end of days) who are an extremist group, they genuinely beleive they are different, ironically when pressed about their building a new zion dub regge message of peace and love and how this was extended to the palestinians this group became very vocal...

they were the religous zealot version of skrewdriver of those daft nazi pop twins, in their reactions.

it would be possible to say that these are the fringe extremeists with in israeli society were it not for the problems of the systematic abuses sanctioned by the state. which deny the palestineians in the occupied terrirories may rights israelis take for granted...

as a foot note try being bengali, oakistaini or indian or having a muslim surname and attempt to travel around islrael, i can assure you the racism is endemic...

 

[moono]

as a foot note try being bengali, oakistaini or indian or having a muslim surname and attempt to travel around islrael, i can assure you the racism is endemic...

That being the case, you'd have cause to claim racism because different races were suffering discrimination. In the instance of indigenous Jews and indigenous Muslims, however, race doesn't come into it. They are all Semites. Some speak Hebrew, some speak Arabic.
The apartheid practised in Israel is sectarian, not racist, although segregationist Jews would dearly love for you to believe differently. You can't be a 'chosen people' if you're the same people as everybody else in the neighbourhood.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

That being the case, you'd have cause to claim racism because different races were suffering discrimination. In the instance of indigenous Jews and indigenous Muslims, however, race doesn't come into it. They are all Semites. Some speak Hebrew, some speak Arabic.
The apartheid practised in Israel is sectarian, not racist, although segregationist Jews would dearly love for you to believe differently. You can't be a 'chosen people' if you're the same people as everybody else in the neighbourhood.

you are argueing a semantic line which is not relevant ... more over the majority of israelis are from russian stock and not indignious to the region ergo they are not semetic...

 

[ViolentPanda]

you are argueing a semantic line which is not relevant ... more over the majority of israelis are from russian stock and not indignious to the region ergo they are not semetic...

"Russian" is a bit of a misnomer, especially to Ukrainians. We don't like being mistaken for beet-eaters.
More Israelis are Ashkenazy-derived (eastern/central European) than semitic/Misrahi/Sephardi though, IIRC.

 

[shogzie]

More Israelis are Ashkenazy-derived (eastern/central European) than semitic/Misrahi/Sephardi though, IIRC.

It's the other way round actually.

 

[moono]

So, Garfield, if these people under the collective banner of 'Jewry' discriminated against Semites , that is, practised a racial discrimination, then where would Semitic Jews stand ? You have to accept a degree of sectarianism to the apartheid in Israel. Myself, I do not see it as 'racial' at all.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

So, Garfield, if these people under the collective banner of 'Jewry' discriminated against Semites , that is, practised a racial discrimination, then where would Semitic Jews stand ? You have to accept a degree of sectarianism to the apartheid in Israel. Myself, I do not see it as 'racial' at all.

then the fault is with thine eyes...

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's the other way round actually.

I did say "iirc", and it has been 20-odd years since I've been to Israel.