Palestine: Which faction do the Left Support?

[KeyboardJockey]

Of course not, you silly arse

The Palestinian refugees have paid for generations for their forcible expulsion. The only solution is a single democratic state, which to work would need massive resources pumped in. I don't care whose expense it's at, but the US funds the Israelis massively already and should shoulder the burder for funding every Palestinian to the same tune per head

I agree that a shed load of money should go to the Palestinians I just don't think the single state solution is a goer. If I was an israeli I would look at how my co-religionists are treated in muslim countires and go 'fuck that for a game of soldiers'.

israel will never be secure until the fundamental injustice of the land theft is addressed

I don't think that this idea is a goer at all. Meaningful compensation to individual Palestinians along with infrastructure rebuilding would be the way to go. But giving away the land of Israel is a no no. Shared soverignty for Jerusalem might be possible though.

 

[Spion]

Hamas did have opportunities to have channels of communication but didn't use them.

Why should they talk to a state that is built on denying them their rights? The Zionists by both word and deed did and do not recognise the rights of Palestinians, and that's putting it mildly

 

[KeyboardJockey]

not that different to what Sinn fein were doing (ie supporting a bombing campaign) or what the PLO before them did. It is nothing to do with the religious aspect, it was to do with the fact that they oppose the existence of Israel. At least accept that straight forward truth. And if they dont want to talk with Hamas, fine, but then they cant blame Hamas for responding by more suicide bombs. Cutting off nose to spite their face - seems to be a favourite occupation of yours!

And Hamas' 'channels' were to drop their one state policy! I wonder why they didnt accept?

But they still wouldn't give up their desire for the destruction of Israel.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Why should they talk to a state that is built on denying them their rights? The Zionists by both word and deed did and do not recognise the rights of Palestinians, and that's putting it mildly

The Palestinians were treated pretty shit by the Arab countries as well. Why didn't these countries integrate their Pal population instead of letting them fester in squalid camps so that they can be used as a stick to beat Israel with.

 

[Spion]

The Palestinians were treated pretty shit by the Arab countries as well. Why didn't these countries integrate their Pal population instead of letting them fester in squalid camps so that they can be used as a stick to beat Israel with.

Yes they were/are, but it's a shit argument. So, if I nick your house you'd agree if I told you your relatives must now house you? Course you fucking wouldn't. Stop being so one eyed and look for how the injustice can be righted. The problem will never go away until it is

 

[belboid]

But they still wouldn't give up their desire for the destruction of Israel.

somewhat surprisingly, even the EU thinks you're talking bollocks!

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1161811213704

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Yes they were/are, but it's a shit argument. So, if I nick your house you'd agree if I told you your relatives must now house you? Course you fucking wouldn't. Stop being so one eyed and look for how the injustice can be righted. The problem will never go away until it is

I agree that the injustice should be righted but in righting this undoubted wrong should not include the destruction of Israel.

 

[Spion]

I agree that the injustice should be righted but in righting this undoubted wrong should not include the destruction of Israel.

'destruction' is an emotive word and quite wrong for the circumstances. There should be a secular state on that territory with democratic rights for all, and not one that gives privileges to one people over another.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

'destruction' is an emotive word and quite wrong for the circumstances. There should be a secular state on that territory with democratic rights for all, and not one that gives privileges to one people over another.

I'd like to see two states Israel and Palestine working together in the form of an economic union of the holy lands.

 

[Luciona]

http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/johann_hari/article2669878.ece

 

[KeyboardJockey]

http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/johann_hari/article2669878.ece

If the supporters of Hamas are pushing the party for peace then that is a positive move.

 

[Belushi]

I'm supporting that unarmed guy who tried to take the gun of the militia fella last week.

 

[butchersapron]

I'd like to see two states Israel and Palestine working together in the form of an economic union of the holy lands.

Like the economic union of the US and Mexico?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Like the economic of the US and Mexico?

No more like the EU.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Must say, I can't see how the fact that the Palestinean resistance in all forms will be strengthened by a non-reformist Hamas victory, and weakened by a reformist, increasingly corrupt and bought out Fatah movement (being openly back by Condi and Olmert as the 'moderate' force) hasn't entered into this argument.

Who would you like to support if you were a socialist Palestinean calling for a unified State? The Fatah movement which is nowhere to be seen on the ground (other than within the Police and other armed forces), nowhere to be seen on the resistance front, and have abandoned their dreams of a unified state - or Hamas who provide welfare relief, education and social support networks to the Palestinean people - most actively support the resistance in all forms (be it in the TUs or all other structures) and who refuse to comply with demands to reduce their aims to a two-state solution?

There's no choice. And as far as the Palestineans are concerned, Hamas' mandate to govern is more than just democratic, it's popular (despite the embargos). If Fatah win this fight it's a victory for the Israelis who want the Palestine resistance slogans toned down to more 'reasonable' demands, such as a slowed down annexation of all their lands, and perhaps the retainment of one or two of their smaller reservoirs.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Must say, I can't see how the fact that the Palestinean resistance in all forms will be strengthened by a non-reformist Hamas victory, and weakened by a reformist, increasingly corrupt and bought out Fatah movement (being openly back by Condi and Olmert as the 'moderate' force) hasn't entered into this argument.

How is Hamas non-reformist? Where have Hamas stated that they want a revolutionary overthrow of capitalism?

Also while I think Fatah are scum (backed up by personal experiences of people I know who have met their leaders) are you seriously saying we should give uncritical support to Hamas given their politics? You might want to look at the Iranian revolution.

 

[butchersapron]

Must say, I can't see how the fact that the Palestinean resistance in all forms will be strengthened by a non-reformist Hamas victory, and weakened by a reformist, increasingly corrupt and bought out Fatah movement

All it's forms? In it's independent working class forms? In it's feminist forms? It's communist forms? It's secular forms?

This is a wind up. It is. It must be.

 

[Spion]

I'd like to see two states Israel and Palestine working together in the form of an economic union of the holy lands.

Yeah, that's like me nicking your house, forcing you and your family to live in a sq metre in the back garden and then cheerfully proclaiming I'd like 'economic union' between us.

You dewy one-eyed-ness for a Jewish state completely blinds you to the root of the problem. Not to mention the ethnic exclusivity involved in your thinking.

 

[nino_savatte]

btw, this is balderdash too - Israel doesn't refuse to talk to Hamas because of their 'Islamism', its because they want a single unified Palestinian state - not unlike Sinn Fein. If the PLO returned to a one state position, they would be cast out too.

This is a point that is constantly overlooked by apologist for Israel. IIRC, The Israeli state initially refused to talk to Mahmoud Abbas. Only now, after a great deal of US money has been given to Fatah to undermine the democratic process, do Olmert and his chums hint at "supporting the Palestinian Authority".

 

[ViolentPanda]

No more like the EU.

Be difficult, as the current power-weilders of the state of Israel would see any federated solution with the Palestinians as a betrayal of the principle of achieving eretz Israel.

 

[chilango]

Hamas=Rich Kids?

Was reading a study in American Anthropologist this morning, that shows Hamas (and Islamic Jihad) activists being more likeley to be wealthy and less likely to be from the poorer end of society than ordinary Palestinians.