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Paedophilia and morality

Fantasising about such stuff is not morally wrong from my own moral perspective, although I would steer clear from someone I knew fantasised about sex with toddlers. I wish it were easier for people to admit they feel this way, and seek help.

Fantasising about teenagers is slightly different, in my own personal morality, and it even has a different name, pederasty. With teenagers you can justify it by saying that some kids that age do consent to sex in a fully informed way, but with pre-teens, you can't. If an adult - over 21, say, though that's not a strict figure - fantasises about having sex with teenagers just because they're teenagers, then I'd find it odd, and slightly disgusting, but not morally wrong. If they acted on their desires, then I'd think that was morally wrong. But I'd still think it was different to paedophilia proper.

I do think that people who fantasise about such things should get help; one reason is that they might act upon it one day, and the other is that there must be reasons that their sexual feelings lean this way - so I guess the main form of 'help' would be to seek out the root cause of their feelings. Also to give support for ways to avoid ever acting out on those feelings.

Cartoon paedo porn is very different to real paedo porn in that it doesn't use real children. I think we've had long discussions on here before about whether it would be cathartic or whether it would normalise such desires, but the essential difference is the lack of real children - except in some theoretical cartoon porn where it would be hard to say if it was a real kid CGId; I don't know if such stuff exists, and am not going to search for it.

The age of consent is arbitrary of course. Some countries (Holland, for example) have a different system where there's still an age of consent, but it varies slightly according to the ages of both participants. So a 15-year-old and a 16-year-old having sex wouldn't be illegal there. The ages are still arbitrary, but that's unavoidable.

In this country, I don't think most people would consider that 16-year-old a paedophile. I would personally be against the law taking action against him/her.

It's not only informed consent that's the issue, though that's the key one, it's that a paedophile who claims to 'love' children and want a real relationship with them, is missing one key fact: the child will grow up. So it's 'love' that has a defined end point, defined by the paedophile, not by external circumstances.
 
It's not only informed consent that's the issue, though that's the key one, it's that a paedophile who claims to 'love' children and want a real relationship with them, is missing one key fact: the child will grow up. So it's 'love' that has a defined end point, defined by the paedophile, not by external circumstances.

I don't think pedophiles are looking at key facts. There's something fundamentally out of alignment with them.

There are instances of pedophiles who will abduct a child, keep him till he starts getting 'too old', then usually use the older one to get a younger one, then cut the older one loose.
 
Wrt your discussion of pederasty, the difficulty for our society is that biology makes humans ready for reproduction at puberty, and for a long time in human history, that's when sexuality began.

We have moved the goalpost back from that landmark, leaving lots of room for confusion, anxiety, guilt, anger etc, in between. I'm not saying we should go back to the way it was in pre industrial ages, but we shouldn't be surprised at all the turmoil we see around this issue. I'm speaking specifically of teens, and not pre pubescent children.
 
I don't think pedophiles are looking at key facts. There's something fundamentally out of alignment with them.

There are instances of pedophiles who will abduct a child, keep him till he starts getting 'too old', then usually use the older one to get a younger one, then cut the older one loose.

I think 'key fact' was the wrong phrase to use. I meant that, for me, this is an extra reason why paedophilia is so wrong, especially used to counter the idea that paedophiles might 'love' such the children they abuse.

You're right that most active paedophiles probably don't get that. I've heard about such stories, too.

But they might still not be beyond help.
 
True.. but your arguement that these preditors are not sexually developed doesn't hold water with me.. I worked with a guy.. he was married.. had three kids.. seemed to be a bloke about town like any other.. 35 years old.. a chef.. walked and talked like any other.. His missus was ordinary.. as were his kids..

He snatched a three year old from a garden and held her in an abandoned house for 24 hours.. didn't have penetrative sex with the child but the physical evidence and DNA taken from the child and house was more than the prosecution needed to convict.. ...

Just as many cases of child abuse by seemingly ordinary people seem to prove...

Where in these instances.. and there are many of them.. is the perpetrator NOT sexually developed...???

His actions destroyed his family and that childs...

Where does not sexually developed come in to it..??
 
True.. but your arguement that these preditors are not sexually developed doesn't hold water with me.. I worked with a guy.. he was married.. had three kids.. seemed to be a bloke about town like any other.. 35 years old.. a chef.. walked and talked like any other.. His missus was ordinary.. as were his kids..

He snatched a three year old from a garden and held her in an abandoned house for 24 hours.. didn't have penetrative sex with the child but the physical evidence and DNA taken from the child and house was more than the prosecution needed to convict.. ...

Just as many cases of child abuse by seemingly ordinary people seem to prove...

Where in these instances.. and there are many of them.. is the perpetrator NOT sexually developed...???

His actions destroyed his family and that childs...

Where does not sexually developed come in to it..??

There are no rules of universal application; just because you get people like your coworker, doesn't mean that in general, pedophiles aren't the way I described.
 
I should add that I think intra family pedophilia, abuse etc, may spring up from dysfunctional family dynamics, etc.

I think those cases, and those of your coworker, may have a chance for rehabilitation to work. Where it's less likely to work, are 'serial' pedophiles, who are constantly looking for children to satisfy their desires with.
 
Wrt your discussion of pederasty, the difficulty for our society is that biology makes humans ready for reproduction at puberty, and for a long time in human history, that's when sexuality began.

We have moved the goalpost back from that landmark, leaving lots of room for confusion, anxiety, guilt, anger etc, in between. I'm not saying we should go back to the way it was in pre industrial ages, but we shouldn't be surprised at all the turmoil we see around this issue. I'm speaking specifically of teens, and not pre pubescent children.

Yup. That's one of the reasons pederasty is different to proper paedophilia, to me. They get lumped in together as one, but the impulse is not the same, and the danger is not the same - though there's still the issue of such 'love' having an inner time-limit if the adult specifically likes young teenagers for being young teenagers.

There are good reasons that most countries have moved the goalposts. Pregnancy is much riskier for young girls who haven't fully matured, for example. Girls of that age aren't completely ready for reproduction, on the whole. Then there is, of course, psychological development. Humans take a lot longer to grow up than most other species, and current laws take that into account.

Having laws like Holland's where the ages of both partners are taken into account would calm some of the turmoil, IMO. We all know that a 19-year-old having sex with a 15-year-old is not the same as a 30-year-old having sex with a 15-year-old, and it would be better if the laws reflected that, in statute as well as in application.
 
We have a tendency, any time something goes wrong sexually, and a male is the perpetrator, to say that 'it's all about power'. I don't agree. I think it's about dysfunctional sexual desire, and problems with impulse control.

What may happen is an exercise of power, but that isn't the end goal. The end goal is to use the physical power, to get the sex.
 
True.. but your arguement that these preditors are not sexually developed doesn't hold water with me.. I worked with a guy.. he was married.. had three kids.. seemed to be a bloke about town like any other.. 35 years old.. a chef.. walked and talked like any other.. His missus was ordinary.. as were his kids..

He snatched a three year old from a garden and held her in an abandoned house for 24 hours.. didn't have penetrative sex with the child but the physical evidence and DNA taken from the child and house was more than the prosecution needed to convict.. ...

Just as many cases of child abuse by seemingly ordinary people seem to prove...

Where in these instances.. and there are many of them.. is the perpetrator NOT sexually developed...???

His actions destroyed his family and that childs...

Where does not sexually developed come in to it..??

You don't know what his sex life within the marriage was like, though. Sure, he had sex with his wife, but that doesn't tell us anything.

So sad that his actions destroyed his own family and the child's. That's not necessary - they didn't do anything wrong. It is possible to be abused and, eventually, turn out to be a well-balanced individual. I hate the way that the victims' lives are often written off just as much as the perpetrators'.
 
We have a tendency, any time something goes wrong sexually, and a male is the perpetrator, to say that 'it's all about power'. I don't agree. I think it's about dysfunctional sexual desire, and problems with impulse control.

What may happen is an exercise of power, but that isn't the end goal. The end goal is to use the physical power, to get the sex.

If a woman is the older party, it can be about power too. You're right that it's not all about power, but it's usually in there along with the other things you mention.
 
Sex is a transaction...as in.. one/or both gives.. one/or both recieves... both parties meet the requirements of the transaction.. paedophiles take... there is no giving or recieving..
 
Yes.. they do... Children learn how to deal.. transact.. When they get majorly robbed.. do we just say thats what happens.. get over it.. it's nobody's fault.. ya just wern't smart enough... you'll know better next time...

pshaw...
 
In some cultures both today and historically, it is the norm to marry and have children/sexual relations upon reaching sexual maturity i.e When a girl gets her period etc.

Is this "morally" wrong - should we be actively seeking out these cultures and burning/castrating/rehabilitating them?

Should we be going to war with Japan, where the age of consent is 13 (with some caveats I believe)?

The current moral guidelines as we apply them to sex and age are entirely of our own construction - there is no greater power decreeing that "This Shall Be" and I do not believe that there are many convincing arguments that a physically sexually mature human should not be having sex - only those that we arbitrarily create and those which are by-products of our social structure and behaviours.

We are just animals and animals mate and reproduce as soon as they are able. Humans alone fetishise, moralise on and fear their own utterly basic (one could say only) and primordial functions.

**************

Yes I realise that 1000's of years of human "evolution" make our situation somewhat more complex than that of bonobos, beavers or bears and we cannot now separate ourselves from those things that make us "human", but it helps to try every now and again.


That said, then it still follows that attempting sexual acts on/with those who are not sexually mature, is pretty much always wrong when the instigator is sexually mature. Our society's definition of what constitutes "sexual maturity" is therefore more often the issue, especially when considering ridiculous statutory rape laws in the US as applied to cases where a 16 year old boy has consensual sex with a 15 year old girl etc
 
ıs ıt moraly wrong just to be a paedophıle? or ıs ıt only actıng out paedophılıc fantasıes that ıs moraly wrong?

ıs cartoon paedophılıa moraly wrong? ıs havıng paedophılıc fantasıes morally wrong? ıs watchıng chıldren from a dıstance and getıng turned on by ıt morally wrong?

ıf a culture does not dıscourage paedophılıa (such as ancıent Greece), ıs the culture at fault? or just the paedophıles that lıve wıthın ıt?

does the 16 year age of consent have any real meanıng, or ıs ıt just an arbıtrary, meanıngles age at whıch to set the lımıt for paedophılıa? ıe, ıs a 16 year old havıng sex wıth a 15 year old, necesarıly a paedophıle? (as the law would say they were), can a 15 year old ever genuınely gıve ınformed consent to sex wıth an older person?

ı ask thıs largely because of the numerous, obvıous allusıons to paedophılıa contaıned wıthın the works of Plato

The perfect topic to tease out polarised views.

The nature of the question is interesting in itself. It overtly suggests/encourages an intellectual, dispassionate analysis of paedpohilia and its attendant + or - points albeit set within a reference point of supposed Plato/ancient Greek culture which makes it seemingly OK in principle then.

A well thought out OP. Enough to provoke conversation with only the barest hint of pro-paedophilia.
 
A post that asks.. when is a female old enough.. but it isn't just the female of the species that is a paedophiles target.. what repruductive incentive has the deviant that targets young boys.. the child I represented in my post about a co-worker was a three year old boy child..

Can anyone explain that to me in words I'd understand as an average person on this planet.. what the attraction to a three year old boy child by a 35 year old man is all about...
 
A post that asks.. when is a female old enough.. but it isn't just the female of the species that is a paedophiles target.. what repruductive incentive has the deviant that targets young boys.. the child I represented in my post about a co-worker was a three year old boy child..

Can anyone explain that to me in words I'd understand as an average person on this planet.. what the attraction to a three year old boy child by a 35 year old man is all about...


The opening post didn't specify females Frankie, though as a female I did think of it in that way. I don't know why .... I've read and re-read that post ... there's nothing - nothing - there that you could say 'hah! you mean male paedophiles predating infant girl childs'. But I still got that sense. No matter.

As to trying to explain a sexual attraction of a three year old boy child to a 35 year old man - no, I can't. Can't conceive. Can't conceive it by switching genders around either. I can't imagine/conceptualise/attempt to rationalise it. But it does happen. I think it's more about power than sexual gratification, but that's just my opinion rather than an intellectualised view based on some study or such-like.
 
Thats what I see as paedophilia being about control.. sexual control.. power.. regardles of the sexuality of the child.. I'm sure most that read my post about a co-worker taking a child may have thought the child was a girl.. but he wasn't.. so the basis that the the paedophile was child like in his sexuality.. or a male paedophile was acting on instinct trying to impregnate a young female was not the point of the experience I was a witness to..

A 35 year old man who already had a family took a young male child and expressed whatever sexual fantasies with that child.. and that I canno9t comprehend or understand..

Just as I cannot understand another intance where two lesbians.. who had never tried to make any inroads to acceptance in the community I lived in.. had attracted young male boys around the age of 6 - 9 and abused them by sexually molesting them in degrading and violent ways..

I fel as much as we would like to know what's going on in an effort to try and see what the fuck was going on and hopefully step in if things seem out of the ordinary.. The average person won't ever be able to comprehend what goes on in the minds of these people.. Trying to put a severe penalty on them will only cause more children to suffer fatally at hier hands..

I do admit that trying to understand more about them might make us more profficient in seeing them for what they are....

Understanding and watching for these occurrences might save more children..

Reallity..

I doubt it..

Regardless of what we do.. These fuckers are still gonna target children however much we learn about them..
 
In some cultures both today and historically, it is the norm to marry and have children/sexual relations upon reaching sexual maturity i.e When a girl gets her period etc.

Is this "morally" wrong - should we be actively seeking out these cultures and burning/castrating/rehabilitating them?

I'd agree that the boundaries are arbitrary. I believe that since the Industrial Revolution, life has become more complex, we need more knowledge in order to be able to participate in society, meaning work and self sufficiency come at a later age. As a result, there has been pressure to increase the age at which people have sex, children, and at which they get married.
 
Can anyone explain that to me in words I'd understand as an average person on this planet.. what the attraction to a three year old boy child by a 35 year old man is all about...


some people are sexually attracted to anımals, some to chıldren, some to members of the same sex, etc etc, human sexualıty ıs profoundly varıed

you cant understand why, unless ıt ıs you who has the attractıon
 
some people are sexually attracted to anımals, some to chıldren, some to members of the same sex, etc etc, human sexualıty ıs profoundly varıed

you cant understand why, unless ıt ıs you who has the attractıon

And, of course, there may be massive differences between the feelings, motivations, approaches and levels of coercion/violence of those who abuse children.

Someone who has identified their attraction to kids at a young age and never felt attracted to adults, may feel/behave very differently than someone else who developed an attraction in later years, perhaps, for example.


Woof
 
ıs ıt moraly wrong just to be a paedophıle? or ıs ıt only actıng out paedophılıc fantasıes that ıs moraly wrong?

ıs cartoon paedophılıa moraly wrong? ıs havıng paedophılıc fantasıes morally wrong? ıs watchıng chıldren from a dıstance and getıng turned on by ıt morally wrong?

ıf a culture does not dıscourage paedophılıa (such as ancıent Greece), ıs the culture at fault? or just the paedophıles that lıve wıthın ıt?

does the 16 year age of consent have any real meanıng, or ıs ıt just an arbıtrary, meanıngles age at whıch to set the lımıt for paedophılıa? ıe, ıs a 16 year old havıng sex wıth a 15 year old, necesarıly a paedophıle? (as the law would say they were), can a 15 year old ever genuınely gıve ınformed consent to sex wıth an older person?

ı ask thıs largely because of the numerous, obvıous allusıons to paedophılıa contaıned wıthın the works of Plato

Ask the abused child.

salaam.
 
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