Spot on !
Overloaded with work? "You need to manage your time better"
- Thread starter poster342002
- Start date
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
It isn't reasonable to expect somebody to go into management in order to improve it; one might as well say "if you don't like the government why don't you stand for office eh?" Personally I _can_ project-manage, at least for small groups, reasonably well too I think, but I hate it and don't want to do it.
It isn't just an issue with individual managers being crap either. Corporate culture in this country (and, I'd say, in the US, which is the only other place I've really worked) is poisoned by the connection between social and management hierarchy. Really, it should not be the case in a rational system that people have to make submissive displays to appease those "above" them, and feel the need to make dominance displays over those "below" them - hierarchy in an organisational structure is just that. But it pretty much always is.
Even if you don't do that shit, your boss will, or your boss's boss, or etc etc, and you won't get promoted, you won't have influence, you may get the sack if you don't conform. I've seen several pretty good managers, who listened to what people said and did their bloody jobs, been fired simply because they didn't fit in, and sneaky but incompetent gits survive and prosper.
If you're in an organisation with that sort of top-down poison and you want to try to "change it from the inside" your options are
(a) play the role and advance to independent decision-making positions yet not give up your basic principles in the face of pressure and enforce your vision of how things should work - an incredibly hard thing to do, and if you can do that you'll probably end up running the place;
(b) defend a very limited position, fighting the bullshit coming from above, in the knowledge that you will not advance but that your performance will probably mean that you are not easily replaceable - most of the decent managers I've known do this, but it is very wearying, and often fails as there really isn't a way to deflect all of the pressure;
(c) start your own company or otherwise become independent, which is a shortcut to success at (a) but doesn't help other people that much.
A lot of people start out honestly trying to do (a) but by the time they get anywhere they've compromised so much that they are indistinguishable from anyone else.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Oh come on. Appraisals are a joke. Everybody knows that appraisals are a joke. Appraisals are there to give a justification and framework for decisions to promote, give raises, sack etc that are not actually linked to the targets and objectives and whatever else has been "agreed" as part of whatever system has been used. Nobody gets a raise by agreeing objectives then doing them; they get it by making a fuss about how good they are and the appraisal is the mechanism by which that is turned into a raise. They're theatre.
Serious question:
What are the displays you mean. Can you clarify please?
I'm asking 'cause I work for a very large company (one of the worlds largest in it's field) and I don't feel as if I've had to do that & I don't hand on heart see anything I'd classify as that....
It's the only mechanism we have for getting payrises - we have no "cost of living rise" - only performance
I did last year thank you very much! No performance no raise where I am!
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
The exact expression is always going to depend on the situation, but here's an example: someone a few levels above the team leader wanders in and asks somebody to modify a site so that they can do a presentation for "somebody important". They've clearly only just thought of what they are doing and could have submitted this as a request ages ago; that person is already engaged in vital work. But try, as a team leader, saying "no, he can't do that". If you do, you're going against the social hierarchy, and while it may not be immediately harmful (it _may_ be - you might get the sack on the spot!) it's a black mark. So people don't. I've seen CEOs get overworked IT staff to take a morning out to fix up their home broadband ffs.
To add - the only time I've tried to get support from a very very large employer regarding stress they actively attempted to fuck me up and obliquely threatened to make it generally known, or at least did until I mentioned legal action.
To add - the only time I've tried to get support from a very very large employer regarding stress they actively attempted to fuck me up and obliquely threatened to make it generally known, or at least did until I mentioned legal action.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
It's not a mechanism, it is the final expression of the actual procedure. You can get raises/promotions based on things that were never even thought of when you filled in the form. You can do brilliantly at all the things on the form and it won't make a blind bit of difference if someone doesn't like you. It's icing. Your ability to get pay rises depends mostly on your political skills.
Thankfully our process is very much geared around proper process and if you don't submit a request in time then the work can't be scheduled.... that's actually from the top of IT & the top of corporate
Bloody hell - sorry to hear that - part of our benefit package is free confidential counselling, legal advice, elder care advice etc - seems I have a good employer!
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Um, I've just got a payrise based on merit.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
It always is. Whether it actually is depends on the internal culture. Usually, it isn't, unless there has been a big fight which is continued daily.
Mine was too, full benefits etc.
chainsaw cat
Tea. Biccies. Happy now?
A lot of what's being said here is effectively about workplace stress.
As I've posted before, I'm a professional in occupational health and safety.
Stress is a big but largely hidden issue of health in UK, very complex but there are systems - legal, medical - getting to grips with it.
Don't let awful managers put you in situations which can be detrimental to your health. You wouldn't let them make you work with asbestos. Long term stressful situations can be equally (but differently) severe.
Stress is not an illness in itself, but the response of any individual to it can be profound mental or physical issues or both.
I don't mind taking PMs on this if people have genuine concerns.
As I've posted before, I'm a professional in occupational health and safety.
Stress is a big but largely hidden issue of health in UK, very complex but there are systems - legal, medical - getting to grips with it.
Don't let awful managers put you in situations which can be detrimental to your health. You wouldn't let them make you work with asbestos. Long term stressful situations can be equally (but differently) severe.
Stress is not an illness in itself, but the response of any individual to it can be profound mental or physical issues or both.
I don't mind taking PMs on this if people have genuine concerns.
Thankfully I seem to be working with people who generally don't let personal opinions colour their judgements then...
Maybe that's why our appraisal system takes input from more than just the immediate manager - it includes managers of projects people have worked on internally, internal customers, one's own manager & their manager as well ...
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
ExactlyUm, I've just got a payrise based on merit.
So did I in March... And last year because of record profits, the board of directors gave everyone (including agency and contract staff) a 5% payrise not just a bonus as a reward for the companies good performance - completely out of the blue I might add!
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Look, I don't want it to seem like I'm having a go at you personally here - perhaps you do work in a place with a good system - but they all say that, and everybody has their own personal opinions, and the final decision is always down to the personal opinions of one or two people. They _should_ practice "evidence-based management"; the instances of this happening are limited IME. (And I'm not exactly coming at this from no experience.)
chainsaw cat
Tea. Biccies. Happy now?
This is what I meant to post but thought it had got wiped when my cat pulled the connection out;
Serious response for once.
If you are being managed in such a way that you suffer genuine ill-effects on your health, the company is probably breaking criminal law.
I'm talking about stress here.
Stress is not an illness, but the secondary effects of being stressed can be profound, both mentally and physically.
As I've posted here before, I am a professional in health and safety.
The most relevant bit of the law is Section 2 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974.
I won't type the whole thing out, but the best bits (my bold):
Section 2 General duties of employers to their employees
(1) It shall be the duty of every employer to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health, safety and welfare at work of all his employees
(2) .... (a) ... the provision ... of .. systems of work that are, so far as is reasonably practicable, safe and without risks to health
.....
(e) the provision and maintenace of a working environment for his employees that is so far as is reasonably practicable, safe, without risks to health....
I can't look up the relevant case law at the moment but decided cases have made crystal clear that 'health' in this context includes both mental and physical health.
'So far as is reasonably practicable' looks on the face of it like a get out for an employer. It isn't really though. If it can be shown that a similar employer had much better systems in place to protect employees against stress related problems at work, any employer facing accusations of breaching this law is on a very sticky wicket.
The main case (which I wish I could remember) involved a social worker who had several chronic episodes of stress related illness due to poor quality management, i.e. overloading and no support. He was awarded some massive sum in compo, but the appeal by the employer was the real clincher for the law in this area; it was held that the employer may have been justified in not realising what the problem was at first, but that when the employee came back after sick leave and NOTHING CHANGED, thus sending him off the deep end again, the employer had failed in his duty.
This was because the precautions needed to protect the guy 2nd time around were not onerous nor expensive, and (crucially) should have been identified as part of the response to the original episode of illness.
Health and safety legislation does not allow for a civil case to be taken - i.e. your union rep can't use it in a tribunal or anything like that. However, if you have a problem at work (depending on where you work) your local authority environmental health team or your local health and safety executive office are duty bound to take a complaint of ill health at work seriously.
As these guys (opportunity for grim humour here) are usually very overworked, it pays to badger them. There are techniques (PM me) to increase your chances of a proper response.
I'm not suggesting that you can get your boss nicked for this stuff, but if the LA/HSE take an interest and take any action, even a formal visit with advice to the employer, that's where your union can hang their own action.
For example, if the LA/HSE write a letter to the employer setting out percieved failings, that letter is available to you under FOI (freedom of information) Act.
Don't put up with this crap. If your boss is making you ill, that's effectively a criminal act and there are government departments funded to do something about it.
You'd call the cops if someone kicked your head in.
Serious response for once.
If you are being managed in such a way that you suffer genuine ill-effects on your health, the company is probably breaking criminal law.
I'm talking about stress here.
Stress is not an illness, but the secondary effects of being stressed can be profound, both mentally and physically.
As I've posted here before, I am a professional in health and safety.
The most relevant bit of the law is Section 2 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974.
I won't type the whole thing out, but the best bits (my bold):
Section 2 General duties of employers to their employees
(1) It shall be the duty of every employer to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health, safety and welfare at work of all his employees
(2) .... (a) ... the provision ... of .. systems of work that are, so far as is reasonably practicable, safe and without risks to health
.....
(e) the provision and maintenace of a working environment for his employees that is so far as is reasonably practicable, safe, without risks to health....
I can't look up the relevant case law at the moment but decided cases have made crystal clear that 'health' in this context includes both mental and physical health.
'So far as is reasonably practicable' looks on the face of it like a get out for an employer. It isn't really though. If it can be shown that a similar employer had much better systems in place to protect employees against stress related problems at work, any employer facing accusations of breaching this law is on a very sticky wicket.
The main case (which I wish I could remember) involved a social worker who had several chronic episodes of stress related illness due to poor quality management, i.e. overloading and no support. He was awarded some massive sum in compo, but the appeal by the employer was the real clincher for the law in this area; it was held that the employer may have been justified in not realising what the problem was at first, but that when the employee came back after sick leave and NOTHING CHANGED, thus sending him off the deep end again, the employer had failed in his duty.
This was because the precautions needed to protect the guy 2nd time around were not onerous nor expensive, and (crucially) should have been identified as part of the response to the original episode of illness.
Health and safety legislation does not allow for a civil case to be taken - i.e. your union rep can't use it in a tribunal or anything like that. However, if you have a problem at work (depending on where you work) your local authority environmental health team or your local health and safety executive office are duty bound to take a complaint of ill health at work seriously.
As these guys (opportunity for grim humour here) are usually very overworked, it pays to badger them. There are techniques (PM me) to increase your chances of a proper response.
I'm not suggesting that you can get your boss nicked for this stuff, but if the LA/HSE take an interest and take any action, even a formal visit with advice to the employer, that's where your union can hang their own action.
For example, if the LA/HSE write a letter to the employer setting out percieved failings, that letter is available to you under FOI (freedom of information) Act.
Don't put up with this crap. If your boss is making you ill, that's effectively a criminal act and there are government departments funded to do something about it.
You'd call the cops if someone kicked your head in.
Don't worry - I'm not taking it personally,
just sort of trying to point out that some employers aren't the ogres folks like to assume chainsaw cat
Tea. Biccies. Happy now?
Don't worry - I'm not taking it personally,
True, but a rogue manager allowed to get on with making people's lives miserable, in a generally 'good' company, feels much the same to his team as if they were in a generally 'toss' company.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Or a weak manager, or just a normal manager in a company where random arbitrary changes are part of the "culture". In fact, if anything, weak managers are the worst - at least if the manager is a straight-out bully that's something direct which you can challenge.
I'll agree with that
(But if I had a truly rogue manager above me, I'd have very definitely sought another job long ago)
Although I initially only joned in this thread because I didn't recognise (& haven't experienced) the generalisation in the OP
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
I'm not saying my place is perfect, in fact we've got serious problems with our middle management team at the moment and there's a fair amount of stress and frustration. HR are involved and dealing with the problem, but it's safe to say things are going to get worse before they get better.
As I have a pre-existing health condition that can be a lot worse with stress, I have to manage my workload properly and have agreed a workplan for the next three months so that my line manager, the MD and HR are clear on what I can and can't do. I'm also runnng a department that is supposed to have three people in it, and currently only has me because the other two are off on long term sick leave (not stress related).
I am suffering from low levels of stress, but I am managing it, and the organisation is aware of the situation, and more importantly, taking steps to address it.
As I have a pre-existing health condition that can be a lot worse with stress, I have to manage my workload properly and have agreed a workplan for the next three months so that my line manager, the MD and HR are clear on what I can and can't do. I'm also runnng a department that is supposed to have three people in it, and currently only has me because the other two are off on long term sick leave (not stress related).
I am suffering from low levels of stress, but I am managing it, and the organisation is aware of the situation, and more importantly, taking steps to address it.
chainsaw cat
Tea. Biccies. Happy now?
chainsaw cat
Tea. Biccies. Happy now?
Questionable heat encapsulates linguistics.
Are my 4 words more meaningless than yours? Do I win?
Questionable heat encapsulates linguistics.
Are my 4 words more meaningless than yours? Do I win?
no words are ever meaningless
Don't get me wrong either folks, I'm not saying mine is perfect either - no place can be that but it does strive to be somewhere people genuinely want to work
All I'm trying to get at is that all places are not the same and not every company is an exploitative monster and definitely not all managers are arses (which was my original disagreement in connection with the first post really) - cause I'm a Project Manager/Manager & I took issue with being generalised about
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Yes - when it's a way of controlling someone and reinforcing the whole "I own you - so if I say you're objective is to walk backwards with your pants round your ankles, you'll bloody well do it or have hell to pay at the end of the year".
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
the line manager issues the objective, the worker agrees them.
Open to interprestation - and the company always backs the manager over the worker in case of dispute.
Yeah - we stand under the bosses boot.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Way to go!
Forget people having a right to an annual payrise - let's instead haev it dependant on the linemanager thinking you "deserve" one - with all the inherant abyuse-of-power bollocks that goes with that.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Um, no, I said what I wanted to achieve, and THEY agreed, actually. I don't even have proper line management at the moment as my boss is off sick. So it was with the managing director and my temporary boss.
I stand under no-one's boot, either
And 'owning' people went out with the slave trade.
FFS. It doesn't matter what anyone says on this thread, you're determined to have a chip on your shoulder.
Either do something about your job, or get a new one. But stop whinging about and making generalisations which are obviously wrong.
I stand under no-one's boot, either
And 'owning' people went out with the slave trade.
FFS. It doesn't matter what anyone says on this thread, you're determined to have a chip on your shoulder.
Either do something about your job, or get a new one. But stop whinging about and making generalisations which are obviously wrong.
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