Our new friends

[Spion]

it's a weird picture you lot paint of horny handed proletarians cowed and brow-beaten by 'middle class' teachers.

 

[audiotech]

The IWCA is neither left nor anarchist, nor in my experience dominated by the m/c.

With just 30 members nationally the IWCA is not a dominant force per say.

Not left, nor anarchist. Just where exactly do the IWCA stand politically? No glib 'with the working class' answers please.

 

[butchersapron]

30 members nationally? Have you been reading the updated accounts off the electoral commission site and missed a 0 off? They said 322. Not 32, impressive effort though. Thanks for the effort.

 

[butchersapron]

What a muppet

Statement of accounts - updated may 19th

 

[herman]

Another related question I would like to throw in folks if I may-

is there anything specific and unique about the current economic crisis which should could likely make the scenario that is exercising my mind at the moment unfold- an economy skewed towards finance and service sector at the expense of manufacturing and export led industry for example, the levels of personal debt largely secured against the housing bubble.. that kind of thing.

Just wondering how many of what we would say are middle class are only a p45 away from destitution- with money lumped into property of falling worth with addition loans secured on the basis that a bubble that was not going to burst, which inidentally it clearly has.

Maybe there is little that is historically unique here (I will leave that to historians here to enlighten me) but shit seems to be hitting the fan from all directions.

The composition of the jobcentre queue may be a little facinating in the coming years and I wonder to what extent values of personal responsibility and private over public solutions would sustain amongst the more conservative elements of the middle class when these values will not be in their interests any more than mine.

Anyhow as you were...

 

[audiotech]

What a muppet

Statement of accounts - updated may 19th

Thanks for the correction.

 

[cockneyrebel]

The SLP is moribund, I've already pointed out that the CPB is not immune from 'academic infestation', trade unions aren't socialist organisations (which is what I asked about). Which leaves us with the SP and the IWCA, both of which I'd agree with you on. It would seem that BA's over egging of the pudding, with regards to the UK situation, was rather less dramatic than Spion's apparent dismissal of the phenomena.

I didn't say that the CPB was immune from what you call academic infestation, but I would dispute that it's leadership is dominated by the middle classes. The SLP may well be moribund but it's membership and leadership were never dominated by the middle classes when it was around. And as you say, you agree with the SP and IWCA. To be honest all in all that's a fair section of the left.

What are you left with? The SWP and the anarchos.

And maybe 4 or 5 other tiny groups who I have no idea about in terms of their class make up (such as Socialist Appeal and the AWL).

I don't agree with spion in terms of what he is saying about the SWP, but my point is exactly what you're saying, that butchersapron was over egging the pudding.

And, of course, that's just the UK left. There are many mass left movements around the world with working class leaders and membership.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Also while the SLP may be moribund while the IWCA claimed 322 members throught the electoral commission (both active and inactive), the SLP claimed 2978 and another 3020 through affiliations.

Also just out of curiousity why do some organisation declare their membership numbers to the EC and not others? For instance Socialist Alternative (the Socialist Party), don't declare their membership.

 

[toblerone3]

But on each occasion it's marked a turn to the right. The middlce classes only turned to New labour because it had lurched rightward.

So was the last Tory administration more left wing than New Labour?

 

[Haller]

So was the last Tory administration more left wing than New Labour?

Exactly. The arrival of Blair was not a lurch to the right, but a gentle sway to the left.

I don't actually think that a left-right analysis is very helpful, however. At a time of economic recession, competence is higher up on the electorate's agenda than political philosophy. Heath, Callaghan and Major all lost elections because they were considered to be incompetent and therefore contributing to insecurity.

As things stand at present, Brown is going the same way and for the same reason.

But talk of fascism and the 1930s is absurd.

 

[Spion]

I don't agree with spion in terms of what he is saying about the SWP

I haven't said anything about the SWP. What are you talking about?

 

[cockneyrebel]

I haven't said anything about the SWP. What are you talking about?

I thought you were saying their leadership wasn't dominated by middle class people

 

[brasicritique]

Another related question I would like to throw in folks if I may-

is there anything specific and unique about the current economic crisis which should could likely make the scenario that is exercising my mind at the moment unfold- an economy skewed towards finance and service sector at the expense of manufacturing and export led industry for example, the levels of personal debt largely secured against the housing bubble.. that kind of thing.

Just wondering how many of what we would say are middle class are only a p45 away from destitution- with money lumped into property of falling worth with addition loans secured on the basis that a bubble that was not going to burst, which inidentally it clearly has.

Maybe there is little that is historically unique here (I will leave that to historians here to enlighten me) but shit seems to be hitting the fan from all directions.

The composition of the jobcentre queue may be a little facinating in the coming years and I wonder to what extent values of personal responsibility and private over public solutions would sustain amongst the more conservative elements of the middle class when these values will not be in their interests any more than mine.

Anyhow as you were...

i think this is a great post

 

[Spion]

I thought you were saying their leadership wasn't dominated by middle class people

You imagined it

 

[Louis MacNeice]

You imagined it

I think this post of yours may have played a part in CR's imagining:

I've seen no small business owners or medium to high ranking civil servants or private sector administrators. I have seen a fair few teachers and lecturers in leadership (and non-leadership positions) on the far left, but I'm not convinced they're middle class, tbh
​

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[biff curtains]

You obviously haven't met any of the foucauldian plumbers or plasterers, discipling the working classes into social conformity with their expert home improvement discourses...they're worse than social workers you know!

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

They're worse than coppers

 

[Louis MacNeice]

it's a weird picture you lot paint of horny handed proletarians cowed and brow-beaten by 'middle class' teachers.

It would be if that were the picture being painted; you don't have to cow or brow-beat, when you can ignore, bore and exclude.

Cheers - Louis (by turns, ignorant, boring and exclusive) MacNeice

 

[Spion]

I think this post of yours may have played a part in CR's imagining:

I've seen no small business owners or medium to high ranking civil servants or private sector administrators. I have seen a fair few teachers and lecturers in leadership (and non-leadership positions) on the far left, but I'm not convinced they're middle class, tbh
​

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Yeah, that one, like all the rest, that doesn't mention the SWP

 

[Spion]

It would be if that were the picture being painted; you don't have to cow or brow-beat, when you can ignore, bore and exclude.

Those poor w/c people. They are such tender petals

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Those poor w/c people. They are such tender petals

Again not what I said; it seems CR isn't the only who prefers imagining posts to reading them.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Spion]

Again not what I said; it seems CR isn't the only who prefers imagining posts to reading them.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I know you didn't say it. But the inference that w/c people can be so dominated by a bunch of white collar types is pretty ludicrous to me. The real problem is that there are precious few w/c people in these organisations, not some magical power wielded by a few teachers. And that, I believe is a product of the state of the class struggle

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I know you didn't say it. But the inference that w/c people can be so dominated by a bunch of white collar types is pretty ludicrous to me. The real problem is that there are precious few w/c people in these organisations, not some magical power wielded by a few teachers. And that, I believe is a product of the state of the class struggle

The lack of working class people in these organisations might be explained in part by the presence and behaviour (both in terms of how they actually do things and the interests they pursue...no magical powers needed) of the middle class members; this is not independent of the state of class struggle but is an indicator of it and contributor to it.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[poster342002]

The lack of working class people in these organisations might be explained in part by the presence and behaviour (both in terms of how they actually do things and the interests they pursue...no magical powers needed) of the middle class members

Indeed. I've said for ages that working class people are unlikely to join groups comprised of the very same types of people who give them aggro in the rest of their life.

 

[herman]

So putting aside the facinating subject of how many members of each of the left groups are middle class shouldn't we accept that members of left groups are in no way representative of the middle class given the size of said left groups in comparison to that class as a whole.

Now stuff I am thinking about here is that maybe just maybe a class that maybe historically essential to the administration and and propping up a system, not that benefits an elite super rich may no longer be needed for such a task not least because technological advance increase the division of labour, specialisation of administration and just maybe (and I am thinking out loud here) the notions of aspiration can be replaced with the management of dissenting voices through technologies such as id cards, extending of echelon type concepts and the management of data and digital communications and of course cctv combined with an increasingly millitarised police force.

Still thinking out loud here- if the super rich are heading towards the stratosphere in terms of wealth and shifting further away from a sector who maybe were bought off with aspiration notions as those who swallowed hook line and sinker the thatcher dream/nightmare.

Consider how status has been under assault through a number of mechanisms- the inflation of the reserve army artificially by importing labour from the EU, primarily Poland has undermined the position of not just industrial workers but also a tier of skilled and often self employed white van types, how a lending glut has devalued currency (and other mechanism that drives inflation aside from the obvious speculation on commodities), inflation does after all not only lead to and increase in costs but also undermines savings (not that I have any of those to might I add), from the perspective of the working class we are talking about low levels of industrial millitancy and a co opting into the system of millions through pension schemes. These are just thoughts btw and I am not deliberately leading this anywhere, much of this is speculation on my part.

Now lets supposing (by sheer luck on my part) any of this is correct and there is an assault on the status and position of the middle class (which for the richest would represent a cost) then surely size of the working clasas would grow as the middle class shrinks, so possibly this would push many further to the right as a means of protecting/defending status.

All purely speculative and I don't want to overstate any conspiracy theoryish aspects to the above, but let me just suggest one thing here- the levels of home ownership (the right to buy of council houses included) have put those of us who do not rent in a position whereby when the going gets tough, it is pretty difficult to sell up and move without walking away with a sizeable debt- so to sell up and move to areas where there is lower unemployment (though nothing is selling here at the mo) and leave the bank as an albatross around the neck possibly facing increasing competition with former middle class downsizers.

Now of course none of this needs to be a conspiracy and could be seen as simply the market functioning as the market functions as formerly status occupations become deskilled through technology etc.

Then is the aspects I sort of opened with- levels of personal debt, the collapse of buy to let ponzi schemes and a crash in housing combined with rising commodity prices that are not just an aspect of shortages but also speculation and the US cranking up the presses to devalue the dollar and the reserve currency.

Just a thought.

Editted to add though- the stuff about class composition of organisations is facinating though. But probably not central to what I am trying to get at here.

 

[Spion]

the middle class members;

How do you define middle class? I'd have a hard time defining teachers as middle class, or most lecturers for that matter. It's more a case of stratification in terms of education and culture in the w/c to my mind. There have always been more or less cultured elements within the w/cs

 

[herman]

As a case study, it may be interesting (and I will look up to see what I can glean from it) to consider what happened in argentina when crash hit the midde class and the banks decided that people would not be able to withdraw their savings etc, I remember the pots and pans protests but to my shame did not really look into depth into what happened there- feel free to enlighten me on this.

 

[herman]

How do you define middle class? I'd have a hard time defining teachers as middle class, or most lecturers for that matter. It's more a case of stratification in terms of education and culture in the w/c to my mind. There have always been more or less cultured elements within the w/cs

To an extent I suppose we may well be talking here about stratas rather than a homogenous class, I dunno...

 

[Louis MacNeice]

How do you define middle class? I'd have a hard time defining teachers as middle class, or most lecturers for that matter. It's more a case of stratification in terms of education and culture in the w/c to my mind. There have always been more or less cultured elements within the w/cs

Let's focus on teachers for a minute; they are involved in delivering a state approved/circumscribed curriculum, they have powers to test, discipline and exclude, they are in relatively secure employment, they have professional post graduate qualification. I would say all of the above places teachers in a quantifiably different relationship to the state (and thereby to the interests of capital that the state pursues) than their working class counterparts. It is true that they share some experiences with the working class (as George Orwell pointed out many years ago). And it is true that they often seek to resist the impositions of the state. But they are in a structurally and experientially different space to the working class. Teachers and academics shouldn't be in the leadership of pro-working class organisations in any great numbers if at all; better that we recognise our place as at best potentially useful allies (and not be at all afraid at the prospect of losing our aitches).

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Spion]

I'll get back to you on this, Pol Pot