Our new friends

[Spion]

And do you still insist that you've never seen m/c dominance of the leadership of the left in your 2 decades involvment. That's the proof of the pudding.

I've seen no small business owners or medium to high ranking civil servants or private sector administrators. I have seen a fair few teachers and lecturers in leadership (and non-leadership positions) on the far left, but I'm not convinced they're middle class, tbh

 

[brasicritique]

I've seen no small business owners or medium to high ranking civil servants or private sector administrators. I have seen a fair few teachers and lecturers in leadership (and non-leadership positions) on the far left, but I'm not convinced they're middle class, tbh

oh dear

 

[butchersapron]

And do you still insist that this is the case for the entire left?

I know you're dying to pkay your ah, but what about the IWCA and anarchists card here cr. Yes, the left is dominated by the m/c, yes the anarchists are by and large dominated by the m/c. The IWCA is neither left nor anarchist, nor in my experience dominated by the m/c.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I have seen a fair few teachers and lecturers in leadership (and non-leadership positions) on the far left, but I'm not convinced they're middle class, tbh

Mostly they are, and parts of the far left does have a big chunk of middle class people both in its leadership and membership, there is no denying it.

But I wouldn't go as far as butchers and saying that this is all of the left, and this certainly isn't the case internationally.

 

[butchersapron]

I've seen no small business owners or medium to high ranking civil servants or private sector administrators. I have seen a fair few teachers and lecturers in leadership (and non-leadership positions) on the far left, but I'm not convinced they're middle class, tbh

So which is it? You've never said it or you did say it? Can you remember yet? And have you decided if a) you're outraged that i accused you of saying so or b) want to defend it as correct (depending on if you decide that you said it or not)

 

[cockneyrebel]

I know you're dying to pkay your ah, but what about the IWCA and anarchists card here cr. Yes, the left is dominated by the m/c, yes the anarchists are by and large dominated by the m/c. The IWCA is neither left nor anarchist, nor in my experience dominated by the m/c.

The anarchists are, no doubt about it, I agree, as much as any group on the left.

But my experience of the Socialist Party isn't what you're saying. The same goes for a lot of left trade unionists. The IWCA would be considered part of the "left spectrum" whether they want to be or not.

Also there is the difference between the UK and the left internationally.

 

[butchersapron]

Well parts of the left, who come out with stuff like:



Which to most people indeed means nothing at all.

Next on the agenda. Praxis and post modernism in module 5.3.

Please don't - it's desperate. You'll be another one writing 'wot i fink right is..' before long.

 

[cockneyrebel]

So which is it? You've never said it or you did say it? Can you remember yet? And have you decided if a) you're outraged that i accused you of saying so or b) want to defend it as correct (depending on if you decide that you said it or not)

Send him down

 

[cockneyrebel]

Please don't - it's desperate. You'll be another one writing 'wot i fink right is..' before long.

Nope, just winding you up. Tis fun.

 

[butchersapron]

The anarchists are, no doubt about it, I agree, as much as any group on the left.

But my experience of the Socialist Party isn't what you're saying. The same goes for a lot of left trade unionists. The IWCA would be considered part of the "left spectrum" whether they want to be or not.

Also there is the difference between the UK and the left internationally.

Oh really, you haven't mentioned that before. I'm not talking about them.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Oh really, you haven't mentioned that before. I'm not talking about them.

so when you say:

Yes, the left is dominated by the m/c, yes the anarchists are by and large dominated by the m/c.

You're talking about the anarchos and SWP. Not the SP and IWCA. Or possibly the CPB. Or many left trade unionists. Funny definition of by and large.

 

[brasicritique]

Please don't - it's desperate. You'll be another one writing 'wot i fink right is..' before long.

wots wrong wiv dat

 

[cockneyrebel]

wots wrong wiv dat

 

[butchersapron]

so when you say:



You're talking about the anarchos and SWP. Not the SP and IWCA. Or possibly the CPB. Or many left trade unionists. Funny definition of by and large.

Odd that i didn't say that once and that you did, Twice.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

CR and Spion - how many socialist organisations have you been committed to that have had a working class leadership?

Louis MacNeice

 

[cockneyrebel]

Odd that i didn't say that once and that you did, Twice.

You said that "the left is dominated by the m/c". But then you go on to say that the SP and IWCA don't fit into that. That might also be the case for the CPB and left trade unionists, don't know what you think about that yet. Or even the SLP as well. "Dominated" seems to apply to the SWP and anarchos.

 

[Spion]

CR and Spion - how many socialist organisations have you been committed to that have had a working class leadership?

Louis MacNeice

Define working class and I'll tell you

 

[Taxamo Welf]

It's essentially both you monkey. Establishing a real original prior essence doesn't mean anything. It's a game whereby you can invite ever more people with opposing interests (but who have the same long term interests) onboard and play happy families meanwhile ignoring the first step of actually meaning something to the 'real' w/c, the ones who can put us all in a postion so those differing interests don't matter, and the mdoel can become reality.

The 2 class model is the death star of the approach.

10 points to bristol poly

bonus question: should groups have exclusionary measures to prevent this, IYO? Like the IWW?

 

[butchersapron]

You said that "the left is dominated by the m/c". But then you go on to say that the SP and IWCA don't fit into that. That might also be the case for the CPB and left trade unionists, don't know what you think about that yet. Or even the SLP as well. "Dominated" seems to apply to the SWP and anarchos.

No, i didn't mention the SP. You did. Three times. It's allright CR, i've no interest in looking at your group.

 

[cockneyrebel]

CR and Spion - how many socialist organisations have you been committed to that have had a working class leadership?

The organisation I'm currently in has a mix of working class and middle class people in the leadership. Other than that I've only been in the SWP, whose leadership was dominated by middle class people like your good self.

But I'm not justifying organisations I've been in, I'm talking about butchers comment that the far left is dominated by the middle classes and I think that's far too sweeping. The SP, IWCA, CPB, SLP etc are examples of why this is a sweeping statement.

 

[butchersapron]

10 points to bristol poly

bonus question: should groups have exclusionary measures to prevent this, IYO? Like the IWW?

I don't think excluding people is viable, senisble or worthwhile. If you've reached the state where you're considering that then something had alredy gone wrong many many steps before and it won't be fixed by organisational measures,

 

[biff curtains]

I don't think excluding people is viable, senisble or worthwhile. If you've reached the state where you're considering that then something had alredy gone wrong many many steps before and it won't be fixed by organisational measures,

Aye.

 

[Spion]

Mostly they are, and parts of the far left does have a big chunk of middle class people both in its leadership and membership, there is no denying it.

So, how do you define middle class? It sound like you do it by education. I mean, a teacher or lecturer often earns less or similar to a plumber or a decent plasterer, and I'm sure you wouldn't stick the latter in the m/c category.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

The organisation I'm currently in has a mix of working class and middle class people. Other than that I've only been in the SWP, whose leadership was dominated like middle class people like your good self.

But I'm not justifying organisations I've been in, I'm talking about butchers comment that the far left is dominated by the middle classes and I think that's far too sweeping. The SP, IWCA, CPB, SLP etc are examples of why this is a sweeping statement.

All I was doing CR was gently pointing out that your personal experience was largely in line with BA's appreciation; which is something worth considering.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. the CPB is not devoid of academics in high places.

 

[cockneyrebel]

So, how do you define middle class? It sound like you do it by education. I mean, a teacher or lecturer often earns less or similar to a plumber or a decent plasterer, and I'm sure you wouldn't stick the latter in the m/c category.

I can't give an exact definition (and it's not just about wages, that can be one factor), but you often know when you meet people if they are middle class and without a doubt most people in the SWP leadership are and many of their organisers are. I've read that this was less of the case in the 70s and 80s, but from the late 90s onwards it is the case.

 

[biff curtains]

I mean, a teacher or lecturer often earns less or similar to a plumber or a decent plasterer, and I'm sure you wouldn't stick the latter in the m/c category.

Evidence?

Not that income is everything of course, compared with the power and influence teachers and lecturers have over the lives and opinions of others.

 

[cockneyrebel]

All I was doing CR was gently pointing out that your personal experience was largely in line with BA's appreciation; which is something worth considering.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. the CPB is not devoid of academics in high places.

And I haven't contradicted any of the above. Indeed I often complained that parts of the left are too dominated by the middle classes. My point is that I've just pointed out four organisations that show that butchers is making too much of a sweeping statement.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Evidence?

Not that income is everything of course, compared with the power and influence teachers and lecturers have over the lives and opinions of others.

You obviously haven't met any of the foucauldian plumbers or plasterers, discipling the working classes into social conformity with their expert home improvement discourses...they're worse than social workers you know!

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Louis MacNeice]

And I haven't contradicted any of the above. Indeed I often complained that parts of the left are too dominated by the middle classes. My point is that I've just pointed out four organisations that show that butchers is making too much of a sweeping statement.

The SLP is moribund, I've already pointed out that the CPB is not immune from 'academic infestation', trade unions aren't socialist organisations (which is what I asked about). Which leaves us with the SP and the IWCA, both of which I'd agree with you on. It would seem that BA's over egging of the pudding, with regards to the UK situation, was rather less dramatic than Spion's apparent dismissal of the phenomena.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Spion]

rather less dramatic than Spion's apparent dismissal of the phenomena.

Yes, I'm guilty there. I dismissed the idea that the marxist analysis of class was sweeping the middle classes.