Orwell And The Socialists

[Das Uberdog]

I'M not even making an effort to argue my points?! You've made a completely unsubstantiated comment, then have dismissed everything I've said since on the basis that I haven't read enough Orwell; then claiming (when I educate you on the extent of my Orwell readings) I have instigated some sort of 'willy-waving' competition about it, all the while insisting I'm secretly holding some Swappy agenda which for some unknown reason I'm refusing to allow to surface in any discernible form. If that's what you call an effort, you're more of a moron than I thought.

My (non-existant)God! Homage to Catalonia was based on Orwell's experience in Spain - it says nothing about his subsequent involvement with organisations back home, it says nothing of what HE HIMSELF would have described his positions as... I'm fully willing to accept that Orwell did (for a period) label himself an anarchist - but he quickly grew out of it!

 

[Bakunin]

No, I'm not raking up the stuff about Orwell allegedly being a tout, this is something mentioned in the 'SWP fuck off' thread.

The following comes from the intro to the 1987 Penguin edition of Orwell's classic dystopia 'Animal Farm.'

Page 7:

'Dwight MacDonald, editor of the American journal 'Politics', and a friend of Orwell's, wrote saying he assumed 'Animal Farm' applied only to Russia and that Orwell was not making any larger statement about the philosophy of revolution. Orwell replied that though 'Animal Farm' was 'Primarily a satire on the Russian Revolution' it was intended to have a wider application. That kind of revolution, which he defined as 'violent conspiratorial revolution, led by unconsciously power-hungry people', could only lead to a change of masters.

He went on: 'I meant the moral to be that revolutions only effect a radical improvement when the masses are alert and know how to chuck out their leaders as soon as the latter have done their job.'

It strikes me that Orwell's vision of revolution was far more similar to that of Anarchists than a great many of the 57 varieties of Socialist, and that he may have had a certain distrust, were he alive today, towards the Leninist Left.

Discuss.

Discuss.

I said that Orwell's vision of revolution was 'far more similar to that of Anarchists. not that Orwell was an Anarchist, which would be dishonest and more along the lines of something Swappies might do.

Fuck off.

To be fair to you, Orwell did call himself an anarchist though, right after he arrived back from Burma. Am immature phase. He soon grew out of it.

Pointless and mindless abuse, and it does you no favours.

Maybe you need to learn the past tense, fucktard.

I suppose I shouldn't really have expected anything more intelligent from getting involved in any kind of discussion with some anarchist weirdo. I mean, if it had any brains, it would see it was stupid...

See above.

If that's what you call an effort, you're more of a moron than I thought.

I'm fully willing to accept that Orwell did (for a period) label himself an anarchist - but he quickly grew out of it!

See above. Again.

Here's a tip for you, stop being abusive and offensive when trying to debate with folk whose views differ to your own. It does you no favours and only serves to highlight your lack of decent ammunition to fire.

 

[rekil]

My (non-existant)God! Homage to Catalonia was based on Orwell's experience in Spain - it says nothing about his subsequent involvement with organisations back home, it says nothing of what HE HIMSELF would have described his positions as... I'm fully willing to accept that Orwell did (for a period) label himself an anarchist - but he quickly grew out of it!

This immature phase of his you've invented, how long did it last roughly.

 

[Das Uberdog]

He called himself a socialist not a couple of months after arriving back from Burma. That he preferred the Anarchist groups to the Communist Party in the Civil War is a different matter.

As for Bakunin, I think you'll find my "abuse" began when you started patronisingly telling me to read Homage to Catalonia and telling me I wanted to anally rape the SWP CC. So, "Fuck Off" still kinda fits.

 

[Bakunin]

He called himself a socialist not a couple of months after arriving back from Burma. That he preferred the Anarchist groups to the Communist Party in the Civil War is a different matter.

As for Bakunin, I think you'll find my "abuse" began when you started patronisingly telling me to read Homage to Catalonia and telling me I wanted to anally rape the SWP CC. So, "Fuck Off" still kinda fits.

It is NOT a different matter. At all. In a revolutionary situation Orwell would far rather have put his life in the hands of Anarchists than any of the 57 varieties of Trot and stated as much in entirely clear and unambiguous terms. That seems pretty significant to me, in that a revolutionary situation is surely the acid test for any revolutionary.

And you were being abusive for no good reason, so I called you on it and I was right to do so. I don't recall mentioning anal rape either.

 

[Das Uberdog]

I wasn't being "abusive" until you were being a twat. Yes, that meant I wasn't not being abusive for very long, but it's hardly my fault there is it?

And NO, it means nothing, because Orwell described himself as a socialist and had an intelligent understanding of what that meant - he had actually (as pointed out by imposs1904) went to Spain as a member of the ILP contingent. You're patronising him by saying he was actually an anarchist; no, he understood his views far better than you do, and he called himself a socialist to the end.

 

[Bakunin]

I wasn't being "abusive" until you were being a twat. Yes, that meant I wasn't not being abusive for very long, but it's hardly my fault there is it?

And NO, it means nothing, because Orwell described himself as a socialist and had an intelligent understanding of what that meant - he had actually (as pointed out by imposs1904) went to Spain as a member of the ILP contingent. You're patronising him by saying he was actually an anarchist; no, he understood his views far better than you do, and he called himself a socialist to the end.

More abuse and a dirty great lie to go with it, you're really excelling yourself today aren't you?

I disagree with you, so I'm a twat in your opinion, very well thought out of you and typical of a lot of Swappies in my experience.

And the fact that Orwell clearly and unambiguously stated that, in an actual revolutionary situation, he would rather have fought with and entrusted his life to Anarchists rather than Trots is the acid test.

You lie is stating that I'm claiming Orwell to be an Anarchist, when I'm quite clearly not. I said Orwell's vision of revolution was more similar to that of Anarchists than a great many Trots and that he would have had a certain mistrust of the Leninist left and backed it up with the quote from Orwell himself who states that he favours revolution when the masses are smart enough to get rid of any 'leaders' as soon as they've done their job.

0/10.

Must try harder.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Well, seeing as I've categorically shown you where you started being a prick and it's there for everyone to see, I don't really need to push that one any further.

What you're talking about by your own definition is a 'vision of revolution' - you've said this without backing it up with any concrete evidence;

a) what is an anarchistic 'vision of revolution'?
b) what is the 'vision of revolution' Orwell appears to have?
3) how do these compare with the 'visions' of the '57 different types of other socialist' visions on urban75?

Until you try and justify your point with more than a simple declaration, I'm gonna keep telling you "You're Wrong".

 

[Bakunin]

Well, seeing as I've categorically shown you where you started being a prick and it's there for everyone to see, I don't really need to push that one any further.

What you're talking about by your own definition is a 'vision of revolution' - you've said this without backing it up with any concrete evidence;

a) what is an anarchistic 'vision of revolution'?
b) what is the 'vision of revolution' Orwell appears to have?
3) how do these compare with the 'visions' of the '57 different types of other socialist' visions on urban75?

Until you try and justify your point with more than a simple declaration, I'm gonna keep telling you "You're Wrong".

Orwell's vision of revolution, going by the quote I supplied earlier, is clearly closer to the Anarchist version of revolution than the any of the Trot versions. Orwell is obviously describing a new society in which revolutionaries, professional or otherwiae, cease to hold any power as soon as the revolution has been carried out. I don't see any Trot party that would be willing to relinquish power once they got their grubby little paws on it.

Poor little Trotbot, is actual, genuine debate proving too challenging for you? I'll tell you what you need to do, you need to toddle along back to Swappie Central with all the other RoboTrots and plug yourself into the SWP CC hive brain. Then you'll know what the accepted party line is in no time and you might just come up with a point worthy of a decent answer.

Off you pop.

 

[belboid]

Orwell's vision of revolution, going by the quote I supplied earlier, is clearly closer to the Anarchist version of revolution than the any of the Trot versions. Orwell is obviously describing a new society in which revolutionaries, professional or otherwiae, cease to hold any power as soon as the revolution has been carried out. I don't see any Trot party that would be willing to relinquish power once they got their grubby little paws on it.

well that, as they say, is your p[roblem, and a wilful interpretation to turn Orwell into something of an 'anarchist', which he simply wasn't (despite having sympathy with them v. the stalinists). That vision is, in theory, exactly what 'the trots' were also arguing for. Whether either group would have seen that vision through in practise, is a moot question.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Poor little Trotbot, is actual, genuine debate proving too challenging for you? I'll tell you what you need to do, you need to toddle along back to Swappie Central with all the other RoboTrots and plug yourself into the SWP CC hive brain. Then you'll know what the accepted party line is in no time and you might just come up with a point worthy of a decent answer.

Point, Set and Match! Gee whiz, wherever did you attain your wonderful skills at "meaningful debate"!? Truly impressive, my Anarcho chum. You sure taught me a thing or two about getting my point across constructively, without descending into unnecessary insults and without being needlessly patronising.

btw - laughable to see that what you view as 'meaningful debate' is failing at answering any of the questions actually levelled at you. But, as I say - I suppose if you weren't in some way cognitively impaired you probably wouldn't be an Anarcho mentalist.

 

[Bakunin]

Point, Set and Match! Gee whiz, wherever did you attain your wonderful skills at "meaningful debate"!? Truly impressive, my Anarcho chum. You sure taught me a thing or two about getting my point across constructively, without descending into unnecessary insults and without being needlessly patronising.

btw - laughable to see that what you view as 'meaningful debate' is failing at answering any of the questions actually levelled at you. But, as I say - I suppose if you weren't in some way cognitively impaired you probably wouldn't be an Anarcho mentalist.

Come on, at least try and debate on a sensible level. If you don't want to be treated with contempt then don't dish it out, simple as that.

Do you berate your Swappie brethren like this when, heaven forbid, they dare to deviate from the SWP CC line?

Or fail to sell enough papers?

 

[Jean-Luc]

Later he ended up in the Labour Party but "Animal Farm" is still an easy-to-read analysis of the vanguard-led Russian Revolution and its outcome ie another minority class ruled society. In fact the best introduction for anyone not really into politics.

 

[charlie mowbray]

Orwell used to visit the anarchist Charlie Lahr's bookshop in Holborn, where he used to discuss with Charlie and other anarchists like Albert Meltzer.
He also used to get his hair cut by Mat Kavanagh, veteran anarchist (Mat had worked on building sites most of his life and was I think, either a barber because of a blacklist or because he was too old to work on the sites anymore)Orwell wrote a piece about Mat.
But I don't think Orwell was an anarchist by any means. He liked some of the anarchist ideas, but in essence I believe he was a "democratic socialist".

 

[belboid]

Come on, at least try and debate on a sensible level. If you don't want to be treated with contempt then don't dish it out, simple as that.

Do you berate your Swappie brethren like this when, heaven forbid, they dare to deviate from the SWP CC line?

Or fail to sell enough papers?

Aah, sorry, I made the mistake of thinking you had a bit of a brain, when, I see now, you are simply the anarcho version of Das Uberprick. You two are well suited. Arsehole

 

[articul8]

what way, specifically, is that? my main recollecton of their 'break' was that they dedcided to ditch the notion of permanent revolution and joined in the government - which was clearly a mistake in retrospect.

I notice you've had no reply to this pertinent quesiton yet. When the caricature annakissed and swappies have finished their little squabble, maybe JoeR or others might light to reflect on the topic of whether anarchists themselves made tactical errors in Spain, or was it only a question of Moscow ruining what would otherwise have turned out OK.

For all his critique of Stalinism, wasn't Orwell still something of a Popular Frontist around the time of the "Lion and the Unicorn"? I seem to remember some quote about the nation being "a family with the wrong members in charge"?

 

[butchersapron]

I've never met a single anarchist who didn't think the CNT made ' tactical errors in Spain' to be honest. They made far more than that if truth be told.

 

[articul8]

That's what I thouht, but It makes JoeR's position that Orwell profited from staying clear of the Trots in Spain (if such there were - hardly any) a bit difficult to understand.

 

[Socialist Cynic]

Good fucking grief. The guy liked/sympathised with anarchists, he was against the stalinists, but generally he espoused different tactics in different situations. In Spain, he was pro-anarchist and pro-direct action. In the UK, he felt that didn't have legs, so he joined the labour party. Like a lot of (probably most) people at the time, he supported whatever he thought had the most chance of getting somewhere and doing some good. Is that really so hard to understand?

 

[articul8]

Most people learn from their experiences. Did Orwell learn anything from Spain other than not to trust Stalinists?

 

[Jean-Luc]

Orwell used to visit the anarchist Charlie Lahr's bookshop in Holborn, where he used to discuss with Charlie and other anarchists like Albert Meltzer.
He also used to get his hair cut by Mat Kavanagh, veteran anarchist (Mat had worked on building sites most of his life and was I think, either a barber because of a blacklist or because he was too old to work on the sites anymore)Orwell wrote a piece about Mat.
But I don't think Orwell was an anarchist by any means. He liked some of the anarchist ideas, but in essence I believe he was a "democratic socialist".

I think that means he was, in lefty trainspotter speak, "a left Social Democrat". I agree. But at least that's not as bad as being a Stalinist or a Trotskyite or some other species of undemocratic vanguardist. I agree too that he wasn't an anarchist.
Having said that,at the beginning of the war he was into Billy Braggish Britishness and used to refer to pacifist opponents of the war as "fascifists". Not very nice, that.

 

[derf]

It strikes me that Orwell's vision of revolution was far more similar to that of Anarchists than a great many of the 57 varieties of Socialist, and that he may have had a certain distrust, were he alive today, towards the Leninist Left.

I just assumed that "four legs good, Two legs better" was saying that he was sexually open minded by the end.