Orwell And The Socialists

[butchersapron]

The Billy Bragg of his day

 

[Spion]

Spot on

 

[articul8]

Do you mean the stuff about later becoming an occultist?

Did he? I thought he might have gone over to the dark side but I didn't mean Satan

 

[belboid]

Interesting how the POUM had to break with Trotsykism and the Durrutti Column with the orthodox anarchist model to really make a mark...

how did the POUM manage to 'break with' Trotskyism, when they were never trots of any ilk in the first place? quite right about the DC tho

 

[butchersapron]

Well, sort of - i thinks Joe means the Friends of D. not the DC. The DC was an anarchist militia. The FOD were the group of CNT emmebers who called for a Junta etc.

 

[dennisr]

The DC was an anarchist militia.

and the best sound to come out of manchester...

 

[belboid]

Well, sort of - i thinks Joe means the Friends of D. not the DC. The DC was an anarchist militia. The FOD were the group of CNT emmebers who called for a Junta etc.

true, true

 

[butchersapron]

Lovely stuff Dennis. Though i did read that VR took the name from André Bertrands The return of the Durruti Column comic thing rather than the original DC.

 

[dennisr]

Lovely stuff Dennis. Though i did read that VR took the name from André Bertrands The return of the Durruti Column comic thing rather than the original DC.

Ha - thats another illusion shattered for me - still, one of my all time favorites, Vinnie and Co

 

[Das Uberdog]

It strikes me that Orwell's vision of revolution was far more similar to that of Anarchists than a great many of the 57 varieties of Socialist

As you have in no way even remotely justified this statement with any kind of serious analysis, it's kind of hard for me to respond with anything other than

"You're Wrong"

 

[belboid]

I dunno, 'vague and imprecise' would be a fair description of both (or at least of most of the 2176 versions of anarchism)

 

[Joe Reilly]

how did the POUM manage to 'break with' Trotskyism, when they were never trots of any ilk in the first place? quite right about the DC tho

What I mean the POUM publicly came out against the analysis and recomendations recomended by Trotsky (to his chagrin) and were all the better for it.

 

[Bakunin]

As you have in no way even remotely justified this statement with any kind of serious analysis, it's kind of hard for me to respond with anything other than

"You're Wrong"

In other words, you don't have the ammunition to refute me so you're not going to even try.

I suggest you actually read 'Homage To Catalonia' if you haven't already.

 

[belboid]

What I mean the POUM publicly came out against the analysis and recomendations recomended by Trotsky (to his chagrin) and were all the better for it.

what way, specifically, is that? my main recollecton of their 'break' was that they dedcided to ditch the notion of permanent revolution and joined in the government - which was clearly a mistake in retrospect.

 

[Das Uberdog]

In other words, you don't have the ammunition to refute me so you're not going to even try.

I suggest you actually read 'Homage To Catalonia' if you haven't already.

It's best not to underestimate your opponents. I've not only read 'homage to Catalonia', I've also researched Orwell and his links to the Socialist movement in a little bit of detail, having done a meeting on the topic a few years back.

But you've not actually given me anything to chew on other than an unsubstantiated statement, for which you will recieve a straightforward and simple response;

"You're Wrong"

 

[imposs1904]

Das Uberdog,

Is that the socialist movement in Spain or back in Britain?

 

[Das Uberdog]

Both really - Spain obviously had a substantial impact on his involvement with Socialists back home...

 

[imposs1904]

Both really - Spain obviously had a substantial impact on his involvement with Socialists back home...

Joining the ILP?

Yeah, the Revolutionary History book that I mentioned previously on the thread goes into that in great detail.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Well, I looked into a few of the publications he wrote for back in Blighty, and a little about the folks he hung around with (a few groups)... nothing in too great a depth but enough for me to know any claim he was more 'anarchistic' than 'socialistic' is a massive pile of steaming horse shit.

 

[Bakunin]

Well, I looked into a few of the publications he wrote for back in Blighty, and a little about the folks he hung around with (a few groups)... nothing in too great a depth but enough for me to know any claim he was more 'anarchistic' than 'socialistic' is a massive pile of steaming horse shit.

Orwell is said to have written more than two million words during his career, you, on the other hand, have read a few bits and pieces and 'nothing in too great a depth' and that means you can read his mind?

At some point you're almost duty bound to claim that Orwell would have been a proud member of the SWP, were he still alive today.

So go on, you know you want to.

 

[Das Uberdog]

And you, it seems, have skimmed through 'Homage to Catalonia' and think it qualifies you to re-write his political biography.

Duty-bound? Fuck off.

To be fair to you, Orwell did call himself an anarchist though, right after he arrived back from Burma. Am immature phase. He soon grew out of it.

 

[rekil]

To be fair to you, Orwell did call himself an anarchist though, right after he arrived back from Burma. Am immature phase. He soon grew out of it.

Explain this bit from Ch.9 of HTC then.

As far as my purely personal preferences went I would have liked to join the Anarchists.

 

[Bakunin]

And you, it seems, have skimmed through 'Homage to Catalonia' and think it qualifies you to re-write his political biography.

Duty-bound? Fuck off.

To be fair to you, Orwell did call himself an anarchist though, right after he arrived back from Burma. Am immature phase. He soon grew out of it.

I've read 'Homage To Catalonia', 'Animal Farm' and '1984' many times, along with all Orwell's other novels, D.J. Taylor's biography and 'Orwell: The Observer Years', seeing as you want to engage in a childish kind of 'I've read more Orwell than you' dick waving conest, which personally isn't my thing but is obviously yours.

The Swappies and, to be fair, many Trot groups as well, would be only too happy to claim Orwell's legacy for themselves. I could easily see your beloved SWP CC rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of such dishonesty.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Explain this bit from Ch.9 of HTC then.

Maybe you need to learn the past tense, fucktard.

...seeing as you want to engage in a childish kind of 'I've read more Orwell than you' dick waving conest, which personally isn't my thing but is obviously yours.

Ye-es - I started the "childish 'dick-waving' contest about how many Orwell books I've read, didn't I? I started it when you said:

I suggest you actually read 'Homage To Catalonia' if you haven't already.

And:

Orwell is said to have written more than two million words during his career, you, on the other hand, have read a few bits and pieces and 'nothing in too great a depth' and that means you can read his mind?

As for your ludicrous attempts to bring the SWP into the debate - it's quite noticeable that you are the only person who's been trying to do so.

I suppose I shouldn't really have expected anything more intelligent from getting involved in any kind of discussion with some anarchist weirdo. I mean, if it had any brains, it would see it was stupid...

 

[gorski]

Revolutionaries?

This is what and how I think of such rare birds today:

The S-C captions says "Za bolje sutra" = "For a better tomorrow"...

 

[Bakunin]

Maybe you need to learn the past tense, fucktard.



Ye-es - I started the "childish 'dick-waving' contest about how many Orwell books I've read, didn't I? I started it when you said:



And:



As for your ludicrous attempts to bring the SWP into the debate - it's quite noticeable that you are the only person who's been trying to do so.

I suppose I shouldn't really have expected anything more intelligent from getting involved in any kind of discussion with some anarchist weirdo. I mean, if it had any brains, it would see it was stupid...

Yes, you haven't really grasped the concept of meanigful debate, have you?

 

[rekil]

Maybe you need to learn the past tense, fucktard.

Oh I didn't realise you were such a proper pompous ignorant cunt. Carry on.

 

[rekil]

Anyhow, lulz at the random swappie fucknuckle levelling immature phase accusations.

 

[Das Uberdog]

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I've Never Seen Such Anarcho Pwnage!!!

 

[Bakunin]

Now you're not even trying to argue your point, Das UberSwappie.

Come on, at least make some sort of effort.

Orwell stated quite clearly that he would rather have joined an Anarchist unit than a Trotskyite militia. Granted, that doesn't make him an Anarchist, but it does say a lot that he'd rather entrust his life, in a civil war, to Anarchists than Trots.