Oppose car tracking....

[GarfieldLeChat]

Do me a favour!

I'm worried about CCTV, ID Cards etc etc etc and yes, car tracking is another step in that direction. But the motorist lobbyy can't claim it as a trump card.

And as for motorists being the "whipping boy", PMSL, the "matter of time" thread about the oh-so-put-down motorist is just over there ----->

you seem to have missed the important opprative here is the restriction of movment...well done...

 

[xes]

The link on the first page is deaded,anyone got another?

 

[madzone]

The link on the first page is deaded,anyone got another?

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax/

 

[djbombscare]

ok let'look at this then...


sooo... that about ocvers your basic tracking every form o ftranposrt you could use except flying...

you gotta be joking thats the most tracked form of transport EVER

and with passenegr manifest etc they know where you are

 

[citydreams]

Did I hear on the news this morning that over a million people signed the petition ?

Aye, Douglas Alexander was giving an interview on Radio4. he said that although the petition had reached over 1,000,000 that there may well be 10,000,000 who support the scheme

 

[Cobbles]

Aye, Douglas Alexander was giving an interview on Radio4. he said that although the petition had reached over 1,000,000 that there may well be 10,000,000 who support the scheme

It's strange that they haven't got off their backsides and started a petition in favour of road pricing.

 

[Isambard]

you seem to have missed the important opprative here is the restriction of movment...well done...

Where was the "motorist lobby" when Kent miners were getting turned back from crossing the Thames during the Strike to go north to picket?

Why didn't that waste of fucking oxygen Clarkson give a toss about Fairford?

Why aren't there petitions with tens of thousands of signatures and plugs on the radio about police controlling people in railway stations all the time?

Had this shitty petition spammed to me AGAIN this morning.
Bloody chafes compared to Charmin.

 

[iguzza]

Aye, Douglas Alexander was giving an interview on Radio4. he said that although the petition had reached over 1,000,000 that there may well be 10,000,000 who support the scheme

10 million people who want their privacy to be invaded even more

 

[madzone]

Where was the "motorist lobby" when Kent miners were getting turned back from crossing the Thames during the Strike to go north to picket?

Why didn't that waste of fucking oxygen Clarkson give a toss about Fairford?

Why aren't there petitions with tens of thousands of signatures and plugs on the radio about police controlling people in railway stations all the time?

Had this shitty petition spammed to me AGAIN this morning.
Bloody chafes compared to Charmin.

You've got a bit of a 'bee' about Jeremy Clarkson haven't you?

 

[Isambard]

I'd rather he got bitten to death in the jaws of mutant ninja wasps as it happens! But yeah.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Where was the "motorist lobby" when Kent miners were getting turned back from crossing the Thames during the Strike to go north to picket?

Why didn't that waste of fucking oxygen Clarkson give a toss about Fairford?

Why aren't there petitions with tens of thousands of signatures and plugs on the radio about police controlling people in railway stations all the time?

Had this shitty petition spammed to me AGAIN this morning.
Bloody chafes compared to Charmin.

well there's the point that at the time there wasn't a plan to track every single person who travels in exisitance also i don't think you can sa just becuase a group didn't speak out against one thing that there are exculled from speaking out about anything else it's a bit like saying why don't prolife grousp speak out against the destruction of the rain forest...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Aye, Douglas Alexander was giving an interview on Radio4. he said that although the petition had reached over 1,000,000 that there may well be 10,000,000 who support the scheme

link to back up your fictious number of 10,000,000 support or even anything like that number of supporters of the scheme please...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The link on the first page is deaded,anyone got another?

503 unexpected server error ... my guess is that the site has fallen over due to weight of traffic...

 

[Isambard]

But its not like say ProLifers and rainforest destruction.
It is directly related issue: that of of freedom on movement.

All the motorist bleating is not about ancient liberties and all that bollocks.
It's about them thinking they have the God given right to avoid putting their hand in their pocket.

 

[madzone]

All the motorist bleating is not about ancient liberties and all that bollocks.
It's about them thinking they have the God given right to avoid putting their hand in their pocket.

For me it's absolutely about having to put my hand in my pocket - I feel kind of fatalistic about the survellance stuff tbh - but it's not about any God given right. It's about already struggling to pay for the only mode of transport that's realistically available to me. It's easy to be city-centric about this but there are already millions of people struggling with no basic public transport infrastructure. This will just hammer them more,.

 

[teuchter]

However many millions might have signed up, these petitions are pretty meaningless in the end because the majority of the signatories have simply read the biased and inaccurate spam mail, and pressed a few buttons on the internet. They haven't looked at both sides of the argument or read accurate details about what is actually being proposed.

 

[Isambard]

No one is denying that some people need the car, especially in some rural areas. You could run the scheme to charge less for cars that are registered in areas with demonstrably crap public transport.

 

[Roadkill]

@ isambard and garf

At the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest, I think you're both going over the top.

Garf, you're coming across as rather paranoid with your attempts to portray congestion charging and road pricing as primarily assaaults on freedom of movement. Granted, they do offer the authorities far too much scope for tracking peoples' journeys, but that is not the primary motivation behind them. They're intended to reduce congestion.

On the other hand, Isambard, I think it's rather unfair to take the motoring lobby to task just because they've not expressed concern over ID cards and the like. They're motorists' groups: it's not their function to start campaigning on policies that don't affect only drivers. Comparing them with the pro-hunt lobby (and I completely agree with your comments on them!) is IMO rather unfair. I also think your assumption that motorists' groups don't care about civil liberties is unjustified. In fact, judging from what I've seen the main thrust of their argument has been that motorists pay too much already, and the civil liberties implications of road pricing haven't had as much of a mention as perhaps they should.

That said, I'm no fan of the motoring lobby as a whole, given that their main policy aim seems to be getting a whole load more roads built to ease congestion. That argument has been advanced regularly ever since the 1950s, and it's been proved wrong every time. We should be putting the money into public transport.

Personally, I don't agree with road pricing because I think motorists already pay per mile through the fuel duty, and because I don't want to have to have a device in my car (well, when I can afford one...) that informs the authorities of where I am. On the other hand, I do support congestion charging, because there is only so much space available for roads in urban areas, congestion is a growing problem, cars do cause problems in cities and, well, if you don't want to pay for the privilege of driving into the city centre then park the car and catch a bus! That option is not available to many people living in the sticks, which is why road pricing is unfair.

I did sign the petition against road pricing and I hope the campaign against it succeeds.

 

[Isambard]

I am being a bit provocative I know Roadie.

But it's just a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the frenzied wailing from the poor downtrodden oppressed motorists.

 

[teuchter]

Madzone, i would have thought this scheme would benefit those without realistic access to public transport as the charging would be less on remote rural roads etc compared to heavily used urban routes. This is not the case with the current system of tax on fuel and flat rates of road tax

 

[citydreams]

link to back up your fictious number of 10,000,000 support or even anything like that number of supporters of the scheme please...

chill the fuck out Garf... It's not my number. It's what Douglas said on the radio - he was making a case that there is no petition in support of road user charging, but if there was then as 9 in 10 state congestion as a serious concern in survey then a better designed petition would collect a greater majority (hypothetically, in a world where people really cared about direct democracy).

 

[citydreams]

well there's the point that at the time there wasn't a plan to track every single person who travels in exisitance ...

there still isn't a plan to track the person Garf. Are you related to DrJazz?

 

[djbombscare]

Aye, Douglas Alexander was giving an interview on Radio4. he said that although the petition had reached over 1,000,000 that there may well be 10,000,000 who support the scheme

ah the obligatory political negative positive response.

"I understand your point but the glass isn't empty, its absolutley full, even though to some it may appear to is actually empty.

If we just look at the glass and put a nicer shiny glass that is not actually smaller but is a better vessel that is more suited to the govt needs in this instance, what we then find is that the new container is positively overflowing"

 

[djbombscare]

For me it's absolutely about having to put my hand in my pocket - I feel kind of fatalistic about the survellance stuff tbh - but it's not about any God given right. It's about already struggling to pay for the only mode of transport that's realistically available to me. It's easy to be city-centric about this but there are already millions of people struggling with no basic public transport infrastructure. This will just hammer them more,.

That as I explained earlier is what my opposition to road pricing is about.

 

[Isambard]

You're not saying the government are bullshitters are you DJBS ?


One of the biggest issues is where we work has changed over the last 30 years or so. People are just making radial journeys to the centres but to outlying areas and public transport hasn't changed to reflect that.

 

[djbombscare]

The govt and bullshitters in the same sentance my my whatver next. . .

I can sort of hear what I think is an MP on radio 2 right now ( not my fault its what they want on at work) Anyway she has just said that all the petition says is that people have been asked if they want to pay for a servcie and over a million people have said no.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

But its not like say ProLifers and rainforest destruction.
It is directly related issue: that of of freedom on movement.

All the motorist bleating is not about ancient liberties and all that bollocks.
It's about them thinking they have the God given right to avoid putting their hand in their pocket.

erm it is motorist lobby is concered with motoring issues and the realted curtailing of freedoms associated with it which is also now an issue of freedom of movement. this instance doe go beyond the normal taxation is to high or cost of motoring is to high arguments and crosses into that area. Again i ask you why because something has not been an accepted issue previously for one minority lobbying group should they be prevented from raising the issue when it does affect them...

You seem to be deleiberatly missing the point in order to motorist bash, spearheded by you hatred for Clarkson a man i doubt oyu have ever even met... prejuidices not withstanding it makes of rather flimsey argument...

and i think that the motorist is complaining about more than putting their hand in there pocket tbh... moreover why shouldn't they complain about it, can you name anything else where you get taxed 3 times for the same product??
oil import duty, fuel duty, vat???

it's criminal to think that out of £10 spent on fuel £9 or there abouts is in taxation... and yes there are agruments about the ecorlogical damage that oil industry andusuage creates however this is a relatively short term thing as we are at the end of the petrolchemical age and will soon be passing into the hydrogen age. personal private transport will still then be an issue although it might be at that point severly curtailled by initives such as this...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

chill the fuck out Garf... It's not my number. It's what Douglas said on the radio - he was making a case that there is no petition in support of road user charging, but if there was then as 9 in 10 state congestion as a serious concern in survey then a better designed petition would collect a greater majority (hypothetically, in a world where people really cared about direct democracy).

nothing to chill on you asked for sources to play your silly semantic games and then recieved to back up comments which you then freely accepted was an issue which tfl had been considering anyways so you knew about the plans you have previously denied...

the fortitude of your candour leave a lot to be desired...tbh

 

[djbombscare]

I've just sorted the public transport issues, using technology from Futurama.

The people tube thingy

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

there still isn't a plan to track the person Garf. Are you related to DrJazz?

huh?

what part of my refference to being able to track people in all manner of ways already did you miss...

do you deny that then for ease of traffic planning that plarge numbers of people are tracked every day to work out the maximum peak travelling areas corridors and through stations?

no of course not.

which means that this data is kept on file. which means any system of registration of those participating in those schemes will be identifable, the fact that you in your postition may not have access to this info is immaterial access can be gained to this info if needed.

Now with the plan to bring in cenrtalised databases for things such as id cards and biomentric passports along with a centralised database of police records, health records, national insurence details, benifits elliablity, etc and the likely hood of coopting in further services to the id card to serve as a payment card for council taxation and other things too combined with the potential looked into by TFL of the oyster being a payment card system too it begins to look a tad shady...

when you also look at the central european databases which have been created over the last few years and consider this informaiton could potentially be joined to that as well it suddenly means you can be tracked via transaction payment and on file accross central europe all ready...

most people will use these systems because they are told they have to and are presented with only more expensive alternatives, which they can ill afford or ultimately will be unable to travel internationally and one assumes eventually nationally too thus barrackign people in to adopting out of necessicty...this coupled to the medical databases which will eventually remove serivces from those who do not appear from it in the name of efficeny and cost saving it all begins to add up to an unpleasent picture.

these aren't flights of fantasy tinfoil hatter conspriscy shit because everything already stated is public knowledge and in the public domain and is already in place or in the process of being put into place.

what woudl be conspricy there would be to speculate what is to be done with this collective centralised data however it's safe to assume the following:

no system is secure.
governemt projects ave a habit of costing alot and going wrong...
the information will be sold off to the highest bidder as council tax lists are.
it will involve some level of corperate funding and subsid via ppp or some such scheme as this is the prevailign wisdom.


but you keep peddling the propaganda line of nothing to see here i think most people have cottoned on to you dishonesty by now...