Oppose car tracking....

[FridgeMagnet]

so you don't have any plan of action then. Thought so.

So it was just for internet warrior points?

I'll leave you to talk to other people as I'm going to bed.

I don't give a monkey's what you think of me and what I do or don't do, but you clearly have something about people in general doing anything on this matter, which someone else might like to talk about.

 

[Sigmund Fraud]

I'll leave you to talk to other people as I'm going to bed.

I don't give a monkey's what you think of me and what I do or don't do, but you clearly have something about people in general doing anything on this matter, which someone else might like to talk about.

no, I only have a problem with you arrving to shake you head, say how terrible it all is and that you'll oppose it and haven't given up etc etc, then chastise my apathy (and I admit I'm apathetic, but more than anything else I'm angry that people did nothing about this shit in 1994 and now moan about it) before having the brass neck to reveal that actually you have nothing to add either bar some posturing.

 

[editor]

Is it illegal to turn your phone off these days? Blimey, I knew the mobile companies were bastards, but....

They've managed to get over that little obstacle in America:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/12/can_you_hear_me.html

Anyone know if this spooky shit can go on in Britland too?

 

[djbombscare]

Hmmm ... my public transport journey to work is 2 hours each way by train and only one connection I can get & if that runs late (like today) I am late for work

It also involves a 15 minute walk along a 2 lane dual carriageway with no pavement from the station to the office & vice versa at the end of the day. Oh and coming home there's one train an hour

I leave at 6.30 in the morning and get home at 9pm by public transport which is not fun... I've been trying to find a more local job for over a year as well and there seems to be nothing going so the working locally option's a no-no at the moment too

By car its a 150 mile a day drive at peak time... on the basis of the £1. something per mile charge quoted by Alistair Darling some time ago, that would add up to something like £700 a week to get to work by car

Not practical at all and no real alternative to using the car. The firm I work for allow working from home on an ad-hoc basis but as a general rule the attitude is "come in to work"

glad I'm not the only one. £700 to go to work means I stay at home.

I think as well that if we look at something like the congestion charge, which the idea behind is to relieve congestion. If it works then the govt get no money whatsoever for it, but then its not supposed to be about making money is it. Its a tax to relieve congestion.

So when everyone switches to push bikes, motorbikes, public transport, walking etc they make no money on it and the whole thing has worked.

So what is the congestion theory behind the registration (at a cost) of pushbikes proposal ? charging motorbikes to park in London?

It has after got nothing to do with making money has it ?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

They've managed to get over that little obstacle in America:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/12/can_you_hear_me.html

Anyone know if this spooky shit can go on in Britland too?

erm i'm not sure this is acutally true for an off phone though how would an off phone recieve a signal ????

 

[Roadkill]

I've some reservations about the petition's statement. It advocates spending more money on the roads to reduce congestion: I'd rather see the money spent on the railways and on bus services to provide an alternative to driving. However, I don't agree with road pricing, especially if it involves ever car being fitted with a tracking device, so I've signed it.

 

[Radar]

erm i'm not sure this is acutally true for an off phone though how would an off phone recieve a signal ????

Because it isn't really off in the first place ?

Just operating in a different mode, I suppose. Disable the screen and LEDs and unless you have some means to detect transmissions, how would you know otherwise ?

 

[Isambard]

It reminds me of when the hunting lobby were bleating on about the fox hunt ban "destroying rural life" and the like. They didn't give a toss about the closure of bus routs, post office and schools in rural areas.

Likewise the drivers pull the Big Brother card out of the hat to get support for their cause but I'm guessing jeremy frigging Clarkson has never been concerned about CCTV or ID Cards used to control the "oiks."

 

[Wolveryeti]

From having seen at first hand the ease of access low level staff have to these kinds of details I'm not in favour of it.

In principle a good idea - in practice I think people would be hugely tempted to sell that information to private investigators and the like.

The only possible circumstances I would be in favour of it would be if it was all done on a computer that calculated the distances travelled without allowing access to the coordinates. I doubt the government would pass up an opportunity to pry into our lives further however

 

[djbombscare]

It reminds me of when the hunting lobby were bleating on about the fox hunt ban "destroying rural life" and the like. They didn't give a toss about the closure of bus routs, post office and schools in rural areas.

Likewise the drivers pull the Big Brother card out of the hat to get support for their cause but I'm guessing jeremy frigging Clarkson has never been concerned about CCTV or ID Cards used to control the "oiks."

I aint pulled the big bro card out.

I thought I'd come up with some valid reasons as why I disagreed with it

 

[dormouse]

It reminds me of when the hunting lobby were bleating on about the fox hunt ban "destroying rural life" and the like. They didn't give a toss about the closure of bus routs, post office and schools in rural areas.

Likewise the drivers pull the Big Brother card out of the hat to get support for their cause but I'm guessing jeremy frigging Clarkson has never been concerned about CCTV or ID Cards used to control the "oiks."

But it doesn't matter who else is objecting to it - the thing is bad in itself so should be opposed, surely?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

It reminds me of when the hunting lobby were bleating on about the fox hunt ban "destroying rural life" and the like. They didn't give a toss about the closure of bus routs, post office and schools in rural areas.

Likewise the drivers pull the Big Brother card out of the hat to get support for their cause but I'm guessing jeremy frigging Clarkson has never been concerned about CCTV or ID Cards used to control the "oiks."

erm this is jsut pure bile prejudice and bollocks isn't it...

and you claim that the car lobby have an agenda... mask of another "concerned enviromentalist" slips and in doing so sadly taints all thouse with geneuine enviromental concerns...

this is why there is such a huge weight of public opinion and disgruntled motorists it's precisely the bollocks attidue spouted by snobbish people like Isambard which attack groups of people or jsut people with out due cause...

 

[Isambard]

Yes, the government are nosy, spying, money-grabbing c***s.

The costs involved are high becasue they'll be passing the IT and consulting side of thing to mates of their that couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

But the PRINCIPAL I think is fairly OK.

Less tax on the little old lady who lives in the middle of nowhere and HAS to drive five miles along country lanes to get a pint of milk. But relatively more tax if you use a car along conested roads at peak times cos your precious darlings can't walk half a mile to school.

 

[Isambard]

snobbish people like Isambard

You what?

Yes there are some motorists who have genuine issues and yes the scheme is to an extent a rip off and has civil liberties implications. But I'm disinclined to sign the petition.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

You what?

Yes there are some motorists who have genuine issues and yes the scheme is to an extent a rip off and has civil liberties implications. But I'm disinclined to sign the petition.

you are using this to jsut have a go at people you consider beneath you indescriminatly ... and that my friend is snobbishness... that's what...

 

[Isambard]

I'd rather cunts like Clarkson were above me as it happens, dangling from lamposts.

Car drivers beneath me? No.

I don't call myself a green, especially environmentally aware or expect people to nesessarily make lifestyle "choices" in the way they consume products.

I don't have a thing against people who travel in cars, don't it myself recently and very handy it was too .

There are genuine arguments from motorists sure.
But there's also a lot of selfish bleating and whining rom some quarters too.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I'd rather cunts like Clarkson were above me as it happens, dangling from lamposts.

Car drivers beneath me? No.

I don't call myself a green, especially environmentally aware or expect people to nesessarily make lifestyle "choices" in the way they consume products.

I don't have a thing against people who travel in cars, don't it myself recently and very handy it was too .

There are genuine arguments from motorists sure.
But there's also a lot of selfish bleating and whining rom some quarters too.

the issue though as with most things is tha tmaking gneralist statemnets marginalises everyone not jsut those people who act like twats... and sadly at this time it's the turn of the motorist to be that whipping boy...

What i think is everso sad is that the collective need to find that whipping boy and beat him is such that we become collectively ignorant to the other decpetions being purportraited under the guise of resolving the issues...

people tracking becomes derigour, cctv becomes second nature, etc etc etc all becuase the whipping boy is bad and needs to learn his lesson...

this isn't for a start an adult way of behaving it's the manners of a spolit over feed over indulged spolit society; it's the politics of if you don't liek it i'm taking the ball away. Sadly the world but especially britian in the last 40 years after the second world war has become increasingly like this...

your well i don't give a fuck attitude is born from that very society... you should give a fuck, you sshould be concenred that there is a real plan to attach a modern equivelent of a tag on your choice of transport, on any transport you choose to use. and that your freedom of movement is being forced under the guise of envriomental issues to curtal all movement except by government approved sanctioned and paid for services (how many rain forests were killed so tony could go on his jolly jaunts to the states....????for jack straws suprise visits to yadda yadda)

In this modern age isn't this a bit like saying actually despite your taxes and you having paid or your forefathers having paid for this infrastructure we've found it far more effect if you pay to go to work... people rioted whent hey had to pay mills for permission to go to work in the eighteen hundreds this forced pulbic transportation system which lets face it in reality is actually private venture which is publiclly subsidised there is nothing publicly owned about any of it... is paying the mill owner for permission to work...

these are the real causualties of this hoodwinking and you are suggesting that it conintue that people ignore it that they just get on with it and don't complain...

are you all right jack??

 

[Isambard]

your well i don't give a fuck attitude

Do me a favour!

I'm worried about CCTV, ID Cards etc etc etc and yes, car tracking is another step in that direction. But the motorist lobbyy can't claim it as a trump card.

And as for motorists being the "whipping boy", PMSL, the "matter of time" thread about the oh-so-put-down motorist is just over there ----->

 

[citydreams]

you sshould be concenred that there is a real plan to attach a modern equivelent of a tag on your choice of transport, on any transport you choose to use.

Please back up that statement.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Some of us have been "bemoaning an encroaching surveillance state" for many years. Nobody wanted to listen.

Maybe some people are listening now.

That needed repeating.

The only reason most people are getting worked up about it now is because it will hit them in the pocket.

Sometimes I feel that voicing concern over the 'Big Brother' aspect in some cases merely allows people to kid themselves that they're not so shallow as to only be concerned about 'money'.

I have a growing suspicion that some of the numbers being thrown around are more about 'horse breaking'.

There's a trick where you flick around a flighty horse with a sack, get it all worried and fearful. THEN you can put a soothing hand to it - the hand is less troubling than the flicky sack, the horse would have kicked your face in if you'd just gone straight in there with the hand.

If, perhaps as a result of this petition, they turn around and tell us that it will cost a fraction of what's being quoted, how many signatories would feel that they had 'won' - and allow the panopticon aspects to pass unchallenged?

 

[academia]

Has anyone got links to more about this plan (as opposed to the petition)?
I can't find anything official about it.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

IPPR report 'Public Opinion and Road Pricing - Report from primary research' can be downloaded from here.

I did have some links to some interesting technical stuff on the Department for Transport website, but the sneaky fuckers have moved it.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

That needed repeating.

The only reason most people are getting worked up about it now is because it will hit them in the pocket.

Sometimes I feel that voicing concern over the 'Big Brother' aspect in some cases merely allows people to kid themselves that they're not so shallow as to only be concerned about 'money'.

I have a growing suspicion that some of the numbers being thrown around are more about 'horse breaking'.

There's a trick where you flick around a flighty horse with a sack, get it all worried and fearful. THEN you can put a soothing hand to it - the hand is less troubling than the flicky sack, the horse would have kicked your face in if you'd just gone straight in there with the hand.

If, perhaps as a result of this petition, they turn around and tell us that it will cost a fraction of what's being quoted, how many signatories would feel that they had 'won' - and allow the panopticon aspects to pass unchallenged?

That is quite true, and it's one of the things I've been saying about ID cards for a while now - that the cost issue, while useful for publicity and to get people initially interested, is something you absolutely need to get away from as soon as possible, because otherwise you might get them saying "oh actually it's not going to cost anything at all now" and opposition suddenly evaporates.

Luckily the government don't seem capable of keeping backhanders to private companies, er, I mean the costs of any IT-related project, to any reasonable budget at any time, so I doubt there's a lot of danger of prices going down. But it's still worth pointing out that wasting money is not the only thing and that there are deeper issues to consider.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Here ya go:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/?view=Filter&t=dsrc&pg=1

The technology is called DSRC.

The word 'satellite' seems to have disappeared from the discourse these days - it featured often in earlier reporting.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Luckily the government don't seem capable of keeping backhanders to private companies, er, I mean the costs of any IT-related project, to any reasonable budget at any time, so I doubt there's a lot of danger of prices going down.

True. Although well tried mechanisms for hiding the costs (I'm thinking PFIs etc) and the (besides actual 'road pricing') revenue generating potential of technology of this nature might help 'cushion the blow' for many.

-

(Note to above links - 'OBU' means 'onboard unit' and 'RSE' is 'Road Side Eqipment').

 

[citydreams]

The technology is called DSRC.

TfL are moving to DSRC as part of their technical design specification. It's planned to be optional, much like Norwich Union's pay-as-you-drive insurance 'tag'.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

That makes sense - I read some of the spec on the ANPR stuff that's going into the new Western zone. The system architecture is slightly different so as to accommodate input from DSRC / other systems in the 'identification' stage.

The idea being that if two systems agree on an ID, that's pretty much 'confirmed', so the system can charge / issue fine / arrest warrant () *automatically*. I understand that 'ANPR only' IDs need to be double checked by a human, as there are too many 'false positives'.

IIRC, the 'Norwich Union / IBM' system uses GPS to get location information, logs and timestamps it and then sends it over the Orange mobile network when it can. It just occurred to me that such a system would become inoperable should the US military ever decide they want their ball back.

 

[djbombscare]

Did I hear on the news this morning that over a million people signed the petition ?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

yeah well in excess no one with half a mind want this to happen...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Please back up that statement.

ok let'look at this then...

cars = tracking device
public transport = oyster which is trackable
cycles to be registered = i'm sure that then they will apply tracking device to them too
walking can already be tracked via cctv mobiles etc...
sooo... that about ocvers your basic tracking every form o ftranposrt you could use except flying...