Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Khitan?
Operation Trojan Horse
- Thread starter ItWillNeverWork
- Start date
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
What comes through most of all to me is the role of Ofsted. First of all some of these are highly rated schools that tick all the managerial boxes, followed by a lurch into full moral panic mode. Parallels with the Care Quality Commission - the majority of scandals in care homes are in the wake of 4 ticks in the boxes they use for their inspections. 'Quality' as a discourse, not a measure of whether anything is any fucking good.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
ofsted is like when the landlord is coming round to do his bi-monthly inspection. You make sure everything is spick and span, everyone face forward and act natural.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
I wasn't, but I assume you mean this:
Which is not chiding anyone for being emotive. It's an appeal to look beyond the language used in the media, and assess this story in a way that ignores the deliberate framing of it as somehow linked to Islamic extremism.
As for science being the opposite of faith, science is about coming to conclusions based on evidence. Faith is about coming to conclusions regardless of the evidence. They are fundamentally opposite to each other.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Why ignore the islamic extremism element of it?
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Because it's not extremism that characterises this story. It's religious conservatism and accountability. A lot of the things that have gone on in these schools are things that went on in my Catholic school only a few years back. Teachers and pupils being forced out if they got pregnant outside marriage; a teacher who got forced out for being gay; anti-contraception talks in RE; school trips to Lourdes
That's not to say that if genuine extremism exists it shouldn't be challenged, it's just that this whole story is being presented as something it is not.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You're quite sure that all the examples of islamic activity and imposed behavior are just normal required parts of islam?Because it's not extremism that characterises this story. It's religious conservatism and accountability. A lot of the things that have gone on in these schools are things that went on in my Catholic school only a few years back. Teachers and pupils being forced out if they got pregnant outside marriage; a teacher who got forced out for being gay; anti-contraception talks in RE; school trips to Lourdes
That's not to say that if genuine extremism exists it shouldn't be challenged, it's just that this whole story is being presented as something it is not.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
What is required in any religion depends on which religious person you ask. The governors at these schools seemed to believe it is part of their religion. It's not my place to define their religion for them, but that version of it (or any other version) is not appropriate in schools.
_angel_
.
Swarthy was saying his wasn't overtly religious, for a Catholic school, and that's speaking as someone who would never, ever, send his son to a Catholic school. I think we "did" more religion in my non denominational primary school tbf.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What a pointless swerve. If you are saying it's not extremism then you have some standard which they are in. Which means that this = normal islamic practice.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's just bog standard - kids tittering, teachers shitting it, diagrams rather than diaphragms. Same as everywhere else really.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
It is normal practice for some Muslims, and it isn't for others. As is the case with all religious conservatism. My objection is with the term 'extremist' when it is used to imply that these schools are practically training camps for terrorists. That's the subtext of the way in which this story has been reported, but it's not an accurate representation of the events.
Of course, if you want to define all religious fundamentalism as extremist, then what went on at these schools was extremist. But then it was also extremist for me, a non-catholic, to be forced to attend mass and say the Hail Mary.
It's the lack of consistency between how we treat one religion and another that bugs me.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
So instead of doing the outraged liberal thing argue against both what happened here and what happened to you. It's pretty simple. You are giving a pass to one because of the other - and the fundies on both sides love it. They would hate you attacking them both instead of pointing to one or the other and asking but what about them. Why don't you do that?
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
That's exactly what I am doing. No religion has a place in any school. That's been the main thrust of everything I've said so far on this thread.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well, you're not doing it very effectively given that you have manouvered yourself into arguing that what happened in brum is just normal islamic schooling and so they should crack on with it.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Where did I say that then?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Above - at the start of our interaction.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
That they should just crack on with it? No. I didn't.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That we should leave them alone until others have their houses in order = crack on with it until all things are equal.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
A great starting point. Let down by your later posts where you bottled calling or even suggesting that extremism was behind this and that it is actually just the same as Catholic education. Now rather than going on to attack both you instead engaged in but what about themism.
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Hmm, are you sure about that?
Ted Striker
Foot's on the other hand
Is a Muslim teachers' refusal to shake hands with an Ofsted inspector because she is female extremist or conservative (as per here http://www.theguardian.com/educatio...d-bare-after-birmingham-schools-allegations)?
(Apologies if this is old news, I've been on hols and trying to get a clear line on what's actually happened hasn't been easy!)
(Apologies if this is old news, I've been on hols and trying to get a clear line on what's actually happened hasn't been easy!)
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
Teachers in general aren't any more opposed to faith schools than the general population. As such nor are teachers' "organisations" (unions?).
Teachers generally (and their unions) are opposed to free schools and academies, because of pay and conditions issues, unqualified staff etc...
if only. More like the landlord wants to see documented evidence of every bit of housework you've done for three years, and proof you've got better at it. Except, all your washing up and laundry and housework equipment has a mind of its own, is entirely unpredictable, some of it is broken and it would all far rather be pissing about or asleep than doing the housework. [/tortured analogy]
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I dunno about "conservative" or "extremist" but it is pretty fucking pathetic. Whatever super-natural guff you're into, refusing to engage in aspects of basic human interaction is just sad. Have to admit it didn't bring out the best in me when I experienced the rejected proffered hand at parents' evenings....especially when explained away with the "we don't do that" line.
Farage-style rant over now!
free spirit
more tea vicar?
I was thinking that - can't be the first time that's happened.
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