'Openly Classist' - are they still around?

[krink]

I have an irrational but implacable hatred of Winchester - largely from driving round its one way system in a transit van and getting stuck in roadworks all the time.

I went to see my nephew's passing out parade and it was the first time i ever got a horrible, flat pint of lager that was meant to be flat. weird southerners!

 

[TopCat]

I rather liked Jesus of Sheffield. He had a charming GF called..

Mary!

<this was 28 years ago>

I got some great tips on growing weed under lights back in the mid eighties off of some of the Sheffield lot. They were definitely energetic anarchists and more than a few were middle class. Always got their round in though.

 

[dessiato]

sorry, can't resist this one

 

[fredfelt]

A poster here called 'Dandred' seemed to be 'openly classist'. Here's a thread where he started it off:

I love David Attenborough and the programs the BBC does, but isn't he the gold standard of the upper middle class. I love his passion and enthusiasm, intelligence and insight but, it's like the father of righteous Britain telling us what is right and good about the world, and we all sit back and coo, when he and the past society he represents is what still rules us and still has the upper hand in working class peoples lives................

This post was the first of several which seemed to pour scorn of David Attenborough and others based solely on their class.

 

[TopCat]

A poster here called 'Dandred' seemed to be 'openly classist'. Here's a thread where he started it off:

This post was the first of several which seemed to pour scorn of David Attenborough and others based solely on their class.

Despite my post above I have a lot of sympathy with the view that middle class people dominate society in the UK and actuate the levers of power in their own interests and this subjugates working class people.

 

[fredfelt]

Despite my post above I have a lot of sympathy with the view that middle class people dominate society in the UK and actuate the levers of power in their own interests and this subjugates working class people.

I'm sure that happens.

But it's no reason to dislike people based on their class, regardless what class they are.

 

[TopCat]

I'm sure that happens.

But it's no reason to dislike people based on their class, regardless what class they are.

It's certainly good reason to be suspicious of middle class people where it is found in so called revolutionary groups that they dominate.

 

[fredfelt]

It's certainly good reason to be suspicious of middle class people where it is found in so called revolutionary groups that they dominate.

Perhaps. But being suspicious of people based solely on the class you perceive them to inhabit is 'Opelny Classist'?

 

[butchersapron]

Perhaps. But being suspicious of people based solely on the class you perceive them to inhabit is 'Opelny Classist'?

It's a good starting point if the group you're in is dedicated to ridding society of the group of which they're a member.

 

[JimW]

Perhaps. But being suspicious of people based solely on the class you perceive them to inhabit is 'Opelny Classist'?

You can both think of people as individuals, but also have questions when you see them cropping up yet again in the positions where the class they come from has been seen to be dominating the public culture and discourse.

 

[grit]

Despite my post above I have a lot of sympathy with the view that middle class people dominate society in the UK and actuate the levers of power in their own interests and this subjugates working class people.

Yeah thats its defintely, when I go to work thats exactly what is in the forefront of my mind.. how will I fuck over the working class today...

To say that my actions towards making a living to pay rent and put food on the table could in any context be malicious is insulting. What it does do is illustrate a form of hatred and discrimination that perfectly mirrors what the upper classes have.

You must have been disgusted the last time you got a pay rise..

 

[TopCat]

Yeah thats its defintely, when I go to work thats exactly what is in the forefront of my mind.. how will I fuck over the working class today...

To say that my actions towards making a living to pay rent and put food on the table could in any context be malicious is insulting. What it does do is illustrate a form of hatred and discrimination that perfectly mirrors what the upper classes have.

You must have been disgusted the last time you got a pay rise..

You have missed the point by a country mile. I will come back to this later...

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Despite my post above I have a lot of sympathy with the view that middle class people dominate society in the UK and actuate the levers of power in their own interests and this subjugates working class people.

I suspect that a lot of people who currently consider themselves middle class, will in the coming period, have their tentative grasp on the levers of power firmly removed; we (as a university academic I’m not going to pretend I belong anywhere else) will find ourselves squeezed between the economic demands of deficit reduction (both in the work place and in the provision of welfare state services) and the realisation of our political marginality compared to the desires of big capital.

This truly squeezed middle will then have to choose between the democratic impulse to recognise an underlying common interest with the working class (i.e. our mutual dependence on selling ourselves), or the individualistic one to back big capital (e.g. the potential imposition of a technocratic pro-IMF government in Italy) in the hope of future protection. As ever I'll be with Orwell on this one; we have nothing to loose but our aitches.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Random]

Yeah thats its defintely, when I go to work thats exactly what is in the forefront of my mind.. how will I fuck over the working class today...

If you're an employer you inevitably spend a lot of time thinking about how you can get as much work out of people for as little money as possible. Doesn't need to be 'malicious' on your part, it's the set up that needs to be changed. And remarking that animal-Attenborough represents upper class authority is also looking at a class relationship; that's important. No need to make it seem like it's just a petty dislike of certain individuals.

 

[Random]

This truly squeezed middle will then have to choose between the democratic impulse to recognise an underlying common interest with the working class (i.e. our mutual dependence on selling ourselves), or the individualistic one to back big capital (e.g. the potential imposition of a technocratic pro-IMF government in Italy) in the hope of future protection. As ever I'll be with Orwell on this one; we have nothing to loose but our aitches.

Hope you're right, Louis.

 

[The39thStep]

It's certainly good reason to be suspicious of middle class people where it is found in so called revolutionary groups that they dominate.

Hence the need not to start looking at them or the occupy type lot when it comes to trying to build an organisation or movement that defends and advances working class interests.

 

[fredfelt]

If you're an employer you inevitably spend a lot of time thinking about how you can get as much work out of people for as little money as possible. Doesn't need to be 'malicious' on your part, it's the set up that needs to be changed. And remarking that animal-Attenborough represents upper class authority is also looking at a class relationship; that's important. No need to make it seem like it's just a petty dislike of certain individuals.

Using Attenborough as an example, do you have any idea of what his politics are? Surely his class is incidental, his authority comes with his passion and skill for his subject - not with his class.

 

[Blagsta]

How did he get the opportunity to develop his passion and skill?

 

[Random]

Surely his class is incidental, his authority comes with his passion and skill for his subject - not with his class.

Academia and the civil service are stuffed with unskills and pasionless people who've attained a high position because they've got the right upper class background. The BBC also used to be like this. While nowadays there's more of a diversity of accents on the TV it's ignoring the reality of class society to say that Attenborough simply sweated his way to the top. We've been taught for centuries to respect people with his accent and manner. His politics are fairly irrelavant to these points.

 

[Gmart]

[...]This truly squeezed middle will then have to choose between the democratic impulse to recognise an underlying common interest with the working class (i.e. our mutual dependence on selling ourselves), or the individualistic one to back big capital (e.g. the potential imposition of a technocratic pro-IMF government in Italy) in the hope of future protection. As ever I'll be with Orwell on this one; we have nothing to loose but our aitches.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

There will be no cooperation if there is a hint of inequality in the solution being offered. Any kind of privilege system which favours one group over another for no rational reason, is just replacing one authoritarian system for another.

Orwell himself warned of this:

They are then overthrown by the Middle, who enlist the Low on their side by pretending to them that they are fighting for liberty and justice. As soon as they have reached their objective, the Middle thrust the Low back into their old position of servitude, and themselves become the High. Presently a new Middle group splits off from one of the other groups, or from both of them, and the struggle begins over again.

How did he get the opportunity to develop his passion and skill?

Apparently grammar school then Cambridge, as well as getting brought up at the Uni of Leicester where his dad was principal (according to wiki).

Which leads to the ideal of a meritocracy where education takes primacy, and the system is guided by 'best practice' and safety nets to ensure that people get a second chance. The usual set up.

 

[LLETSA]

The BBC also used to be like this. While nowadays there's more of a diversity of accents on the TV it's ignoring the reality of class society to say that Attenborough simply sweated his way to the top. We've been taught for centuries to respect people with his accent and manner. His politics are fairly irrelavant to these points.

It's actually worse now we have an illusion of equality created by the diversity of regional accents in the media, masking the fast-growing wealth gap.

At least you knew where you stood with the old guard. And they were often better people than some smarmy, grasping twat with an estuary accent trying to come across as a friend of the masses.

 

[Random]

Orwell himself warned of this:

Is that Orwell himself warning, or is it a fake statement by a fictional character in one of Orwell's books? Anyway, I agree there must not be a hint of inequality in any future system, but that rather rules out what is usually known as a 'meritocracy'.

 

[Gmart]

Is that Orwell himself warning, or is it a fake statement by a fictional character in one of Orwell's books? Anyway, I agree there must not be a hint of inequality in any future system, but that rather rules out what is usually known as a 'meritocracy'.

It was indeed a fictional book within 1984, but it rings possible at least. Replacing one authoritarian system with another must be a pitfall avoided.

How do you figure that a meritocracy and inequality are bedfellows? Although any system will be imperfect, the idea of developing a system which ensures that one progresses based on one's talents and hard work in contrast with factors such as one's parents, their money, their connections etc surely has... well... merit, doesn't it?

 

[LLETSA]

It was indeed a fictional book within 1984, but it rings possible at least. Replacing one authoritarian system with another must be a pitfall avoided.

How do you figure that a meritocracy and inequality are bedfellows? Although any system will be imperfect, the idea of developing a system which ensures that one progresses based on one's talents and hard work in contrast with factors such as one's parents, their money, their connections etc surely has... well... merit, doesn't it?

No.

 

[Gmart]

No.

So you prefer the world to be one where it depends on who you know rather than what you know? I would have thought that the fight against such privilege is a no-brainer.

 

[fredfelt]

How did he get the opportunity to develop his passion and skill?

I've got no idea. Perhaps he had a privileged upbringing. However I don't think a privileged upbringing reason alone to dismiss someone.

Obviously privileged upbringing are just that - many don't have the same opportunities. However social mobility, or lack of it is a different thing to refusing to give somebody credit for what they do as they were in a privileged situation to get to where they are now.

 

[Random]

How do you figure that a meritocracy and inequality are bedfellows?

Because a 'meritocracy' retains the inequality that you warn of, just reserving the heights of the elite for those who've passed various skill and loyalty tests. You could say that the ruling Party of the USSR was a very good example of a functioning meritocracy.

 

[Gmart]

Because a 'meritocracy' retains the inequality that you warn of, just reserving the heights of the elite for those who've passed various skill and loyalty tests. You could say that the ruling Party of the USSR was a very good example of a functioning meritocracy.

Do you envisage a world where we will ever get such equality? Surely there will always be some such as doctors/surgeons/skilled jobs which are valued more than other workers in less skilled jobs, and who thus have a better pay packet?

The idea of 'Loyalty' test being part of such a system is a bit dramatic isn't it? That is more likely without checks and balances than with.

 

[Random]

The idea of 'Loyalty' test being part of such a system is a bit dramatic isn't it? That is more likely without checks and balances than with.

I've already posted up my argument, including an illustration using the USSR. Not really sure why you've not got the point about meritocracy yet tbh.

As for real equality, it's hard to achieve I'm sure, but all sorts of historical lessons, plus that quote from an Orwell character, shows why it's important to try. Wasn't that what you were just saying, a moment ago?

 

[Gmart]

I've already posted up my argument, including an illustration using the USSR. Not really sure why you've not got the point about meritocracy yet tbh.

As for real equality, it's hard to achieve I'm sure, but all sorts of historical lessons, plus that quote from an Orwell character, shows why it's important to try. Wasn't that what you were just saying, a moment ago?

Using the USSR as an argument against holding such principles is a strange analogy - it was an oppressive regime and thus cannot be used against a system against such privilege and for human rights, freedom of speech, freedom of conscience etc.

Still I suspect that any future will have doctors being paid more than unskilled workers which suggests a limit on complete equality. But as you say it is important to try. What do you envisage in your written constitution? Or what checks and balances would you use to ensure that parliament doesn't step out of line? Surely all organisations and individuals should be held accountable for their actions?