Open University

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

My course isn't particularly vocational, I think one out of the four modules I've done could be desciribed that way.

 

[Hollis]

I think you're misrepresenting the uni, at least at the undergraduate level. There are loads of non-vocational courses to choose from.

Perhaps at the higher levels where you have to pay through the nose they only offer vocational stuff because that's what the majority of people want when they're forking out cash.

That's not true - post-grad are no more expensive than undergrad. I'd be very suprised if it was down to popularity that some of the courses were scrapped.

 

[fractionMan]

That's not true - post-grad are no more expensive than undergrad. I'd be very suprised if it was down to popularity that some of the courses were scrapped.

Yes they are more expensive. Undergraduate degrees are supported by the government, postgraduate ones are not. Here, I'll give you an example.

Undergrad
Software development with Java (M256), 30pts £330
Software systems and their development (301), 60pts £620

postgrad
Analysis and design of enterprise systems (M885), 15pts £840
Research project and dissertation (M801), 60pts £1645

And courses are shut down if there's not enough interest. Why recruit a tutor if only one or two students have enrolled?

 

[Fuchs66]

From what I've seen the Post grad' courses do tend to be more expensive, Hollis I really understand where you're coming from, but I think you are seeing the OU a little bit too ideally. In an ideal world I should be able to study whatever I want, but it doesn't work like that in real life, as it all comes down to money. Lets make the best out of what is still a pretty unique and on the whole good organisation.
ps my Open BSc was purely vocational, fitted exactly to my profession and has helped me immensly (certainly going beyond the snob value of a named degree)

 

[fractionMan]

I was very tempted by a job vacancy at the OU but it meant relocating to Milton Keynes...and I'm not that desperate for work.

That's what I thought too. They fund a whole MRes/PHD 4 year thingamy that I'm ideally suited to, but milton keynes? Forget it.

 

[fractionMan]

ps my Open BSc was purely vocational, fitted exactly to my profession and has helped me immensly (certainly going beyond the snob value of a named degree)

Mine was half vocational, half self indulgent. A great mix if you ask me

 

[Hollis]

From what I've seen the Post grad' courses do tend to be more expensive, Hollis I really understand where you're coming from, but I think you are seeing the OU a little bit too ideally. In an ideal world I should be able to study whatever I want, but it doesn't work like that in real life, as it all comes down to money. Lets make the best out of what is still a pretty unique and on the whole good organisation.
ps my Open BSc was purely vocational, fitted exactly to my profession and has helped me immensly (certainly going beyond the snob value of a named degree)

That's the point though.. but turning into into a training shop, its basically making the worst of what it could, and should be.

 

[Fuchs66]

Well seeing as I'm one of those strange people who actually enjoys his job, the self indulgency was part and parcel. Loved it, although the last year (120 pointer combined with full time work) was hell.

 

[fractionMan]

That's the point though.. but turning into into a training shop, its basically making the worst of what it could, and should be.

Really? What's wrong with vocational qualifications? They suit some.

And I still don't believe the undergraduate degrees are anything like you describe. Especially not in social science.

How is "Power, dissent, equality: understanding contemporary politics (DD203)" vocational? Or most of the stuff on the sociology degree

 

[Hollis]

Yes they are more expensive. Undergraduate degrees are supported by the government, postgraduate ones are not. Here, I'll give you an example.

Undergrad
Software development with Java (M256), 30pts £330
Software systems and their development (301), 60pts £620

postgrad
Analysis and design of enterprise systems (M885), 15pts £840
Research project and dissertation (M801), 60pts £1645

And courses are shut down if there's not enough interest. Why recruit a tutor if only one or two students have enrolled?

You can selectively mix how you want

How about

undergrad - understanding media £525

postgrad - the challenge of the social sciences £530

 

[Grego Morales]

Mine was half vocational, half self indulgent. A great mix if you ask me

Same here! I'm doing a MSc with the OU at the moment, and I'm looking forward to the time when I can tell people that I'm a Master of Science. Vain goon that I am.

 

[Fuchs66]

I wouldn't call it a training shop at all, what's wrong with applied learning? What's wrong with learning with a purpose other than the enjoyment of learning itself. I really do think you have a slightly skewed view of how the world runs. Plus there are still plenty of non-vocational courses to choose from.

 

[Hollis]

Really? What's wrong with vocational qualifications? They suit some and I still don't believe the undergraduate degrees are anything like you describe.

Doh! There's nothing wrong with vocational qualifications. I'm saying the open university should be providing more than training for specified professions.

 

[Fuchs66]

but it does!!!!!

 

[fractionMan]

You can selectively mix how you want

How about

undergrad - understanding media £525

postgrad - the challenge of the social sciences £530

Uh huh, and how many points do you get for each of those?

For a computing pgdip, you need 120 points and the cheapest course is 840 quid for 15. That's over six grand and you haven't even done the research bit. 8 grand for a masters.

An undergraduate degree (which has an extra year don't forget) in the same discipline costs around 1200 for 120 points +/- a bit. That's under 4 grand total. Half price in fact.

EDIT: Aha. I've just noticed something. Computing is expensive. A masters in philosophy (vocational course that it is) only costs £3300.

 

[fractionMan]

but it does!!!!!

QFT!!!

 

[Hollis]

EDIT: Aha. I've just noticed something. Computing is expensive. A masters in philosophy (vocational course that it is) only costs £3300.

Exactly!

 

[fractionMan]

Exactly!

*hurumph* Anyway, I'd say that's a direct reflection on the fact that it is vocational. There's plenty of non-vocational courses at pg level, so I still don't know what you're on about.

What kind of courses would you like to see instead

 

[Hollis]

For example: the social sciences stream used to do course on popular culture, female identity, etc. This postgrad degree has been stopped. The courses have gradually been reduced..

The whole 'cultural studies' stream has basically been eroded, and replaced with more directly vocational courses.

 

[fractionMan]

What about these?

Transformations in media culture (D852)
The image and visual culture (D850)

And for that mater the whole MA in Cultural and Media Studies

 

[Hollis]

What about these?

Transformations in media culture (D852)
The image and visual culture (D850)

And for that mater the whole MA in Cultural and Media Studies

Its basically watered down compared to the options that used to be available.. and as I perceive it more directly related to the 'media industy' than the Popular culture MA was.

 

[fractionMan]

Its basically watered down compared to the options that used to be available.. and as I perceive it more directly related to the 'media industy' than the Popular culture MA was.

The thing is though, degrees are rarely an exact fit to your needs, even in the bricks and mortar world. You could of course do your dissertaion on the bit you're specifically interested in.

I don't see this as being anything more than 'they don't do the masters I want to do'. Which is a shame, but not an indication of anything else.

 

[Hollis]

I don't see this as being anything more than 'they don't do the masters I want to do'. Which is a shame, but not an indication of anything else.

No - you look at the way the course have been going over the last 4-5 years.. the balance is shifting towards the vocational.

This is the sort of stuff it should be doing:

Twentieth Century Cultural History Options

Hollywood and the Second World War
Conspiracy in American Culture
The European Cultural Industry
The Inheritance of Total War: representing the First and Second World Wars in Britain, 1950-2000

Or this:

Jews in the European Imagination
Notions of Progress and Civilisation in British Imperial Ideologies
Popular and Polite Culture in the Eighteenth Century
Socialism: Civilising Capitalism?
Technology, Culture and Society : 1800 to the Present
Transformations of the Self
Victors to Victims: representing the First and Second World Wars in Britain, 1950-2000


Less crap about how to be a manager.

 

[Fuchs66]

To be honest I find there is a very limited amount of "how to be a manager" type of course on offer but also you have to think that a lot of funding for the OU comes from the students (and their sponsors) so I would imagine that these type of courses go a long way to funding the type of course you favour. There's good and bad in it and I also have no need for management courses but I recognise that there is a demand for them which should be fulfilled.

 

[Hollis]

To be honest I find there is a very limited amount of "how to be a manager" type of course on offer but also you have to think that a lot of funding for the OU comes from the students (and their sponsors) so I would imagine that these type of courses go a long way to funding the type of course you favour. There's good and bad in it and I also have no need for management courses but I recognise that there is a demand for them which should be fulfilled.

You see thats the point - SPONSORS. If you want to be a manager/accountant/lawyer etc. there's enough private tutor colleges and money floating about in corporationsfor these course to be run anywhere.

The OU is a one-off. It should be there to provide a broader and more liberal non-vocational education. And to the extent that its funded by the state then I think the emphasis should be on areas which can't be supported by the corporate/vocational sector. - Its a strength.

 

[Fuchs66]

but have you seen what these private institutions cost? The OU is supposed to go a long way in giving "everyone" the chance to study, even if it doesn't fit in with your picture of the world that some (and probably a lot more than want to participate in the courses you refer to) want to learn about management. How is a freelancer or small business supposed to afford a course of this type if not for the OU?

 

[Fuchs66]

The OU is a one-off. It should be there to provide a broader and more liberal non-vocational education. And to the extent that its funded by the state then I think the emphasis should be on areas which can't be supported by the corporate/vocational sector.

I think you'd find that if this were the way the OU operated it would have been dead and buried in the 80s if not the 70s.

 

[Hollis]

but have you seen what these private institutions cost? The OU is supposed to go a long way in giving "everyone" the chance to study, even if it doesn't fit in with your picture of the world that some (and probably a lot more than want to participate in the courses you refer to) want to learn about management. How is a freelancer or small business supposed to afford a course of this type if not for the OU?

Well you know, a small business, such as I work for, tends to send its staff on acocuntancy courses at private colleges, or to specialist industry courses. There's local colleges & numerous evening classes as well aren't there, or it can do day release?

Face it - you're not going to go and get a day off work to study 'Polite and popular culture in the eighteenth century'.

 

[Fuchs66]

The OU Mission: (my bold)

The Open University is open to people, places, methods and ideas.

It promotes educational opportunity and social justice by providing high-quality university education to all who wish to realise their ambitions and fulfil their potential.
Through academic research, pedagogic innovation and collaborative partnership it seeks to be a world leader in the design, content and delivery of supported open and distance learning.

Which I think they achieve to a very high degree, of course you cant (oops missed the T) please all the people all the time, but they do a good job all the same.

 

[Hollis]

The OU Mission: (my bold)

.. of course you can please all the people all the time, but they do a good job all the same.

that reminds me of WoW's "the NHS saved my life" argument.