One thing I would say about the refinery strikes..

[frogwoman]

interesting post discokermit.

 

[discokermit]

interesting post discokermit.

confused and contradictory. like everything in my life at the mo.

 

[frogwoman]

eh i know the feeling

i also have mixed feelings about the whole thing tbh - you're not the only one,

 

[Brainaddict]

One thing I would say about the refinery strikes...

It's a good opportunity to make a cheap sectarian dig. Actually, now I think about it, every fucking thing in the universe is a good opportunity to make a cheap sectarian dig. Still, the refinery strikes didn't disappoint in this regard. Isn't this thread marvellous?

 

[audiotech]

I needed a shower to get the spittle off!

*walks away wiping spittle in disgust*

 

[mutley]

One thing I would say about the refinery strikes...

It's a good opportunity to make a cheap sectarian dig. Actually, now I think about it, every fucking thing in the universe is a good opportunity to make a cheap sectarian dig. Still, the refinery strikes didn't disappoint in this regard. Isn't this thread marvellous?

First comment in ages that made me laugh out loud..

 

[Spion]

i have problems with this. i have worked, since leaving school at sixteen, in various foundries/workshops. i have always been working class, all my family are working class and i have never been a liberal or anything close.

i have worked closely with a bloke who did time for a racist murder and claimed he used to be in c18 (he was five foot eleven, eighteen stone and a psychopath). i come from the same town as enoch powell, in a part of the country that voted for enoch powell, amongst people that were the first to go on strike in support of him (before the dockers). so, i'm not by any means squeemish.

but when i found out about what was happening, i was horrified. i didn't find out from telly, but first heard about what was going on by going on the uk welder messageboard (i was only looking for some new boots!). the messageboard had hundreds of posts on it, a large majority raised the bj4bw slogan, a small minority were outright racists and a much smaller minority looked at it from a worker v boss perspective. i looked around various left sites and blogs but couldn't find out anything about it. the only people i had seen actively supporting it were the bnp and the daily star.

i came, independently, to very similar conclusions to the swp. however, since then, at work i've been arguing the sp line, mainly because we have quite an international workforce but also some outright racists. this line has taken some of the wind out of the racists sails (who were using the bj4bw slogan) and also allayed some of the fears of the "foreign" workers of an imminent pogrom. deep down though, i still believe the swp analysis is nearer the truth.

Good post . . . for a yam yam

 

[Fedayn]

i have problems with this. i have worked, since leaving school at sixteen, in various foundries/workshops. i have always been working class, all my family are working class and i have never been a liberal or anything close.

i have worked closely with a bloke who did time for a racist murder and claimed he used to be in c18 (he was five foot eleven, eighteen stone and a psychopath). i come from the same town as enoch powell, in a part of the country that voted for enoch powell, amongst people that were the first to go on strike in support of him (before the dockers). so, i'm not by any means squeemish.

but when i found out about what was happening, i was horrified. i didn't find out from telly, but first heard about what was going on by going on the uk welder messageboard (i was only looking for some new boots!). the messageboard had hundreds of posts on it, a large majority raised the bj4bw slogan, a small minority were outright racists and a much smaller minority looked at it from a worker v boss perspective. i looked around various left sites and blogs but couldn't find out anything about it. the only people i had seen actively supporting it were the bnp and the daily star.

i came, independently, to very similar conclusions to the swp. however, since then, at work i've been arguing the sp line, mainly because we have quite an international workforce but also some outright racists. this line has taken some of the wind out of the racists sails (who were using the bj4bw slogan) and also allayed some of the fears of the "foreign" workers of an imminent pogrom. deep down though, i still believe the swp analysis is nearer the truth.

Then why did you argue a different position?

 

[discokermit]

Then why did you argue a different position?

some of the english workers were winding up the hungarian lads, saying that there was going to be masses of people attacking them in the street, bj4bw, etc.
the hungarians were responding with "hungarian cock for british workers!", which wasn't helping.
it had started off as a bit of banter but it had a nasty edge to it. the hungarians got quite worried. the sp line seemed the best to settle the situation.

i also wanted to believe it. it was only when i said it out loud, i thought to myself, "i don't really believe this".

 

[Spion]

some of the english workers were winding up the hungarian lads, saying that there was going to be masses of people attacking them in the street, bj4bw, etc.
the hungarians were responding with "hungarian cock for british workers!", which wasn't helping.
it had started off as a bit of banter but it had a nasty edge to it. the hungarians got quite worried. the sp line seemed the best to settle the situation.

i also wanted to believe it. it was only when i said it out loud, i thought to myself, "i don't really believe this".

So, how did it pan out? When you had to say what best summed up what you thought, what did you say?

Did you get chance to say what you were thinking deep down at all?

I worked in toolrooms round Brum for quite a few years and depending on the particular shop it was more or less difficult to say what you thought. Some places I could say what I wanted, some I had to really watch myself, or even choke back some of what I was thinking because I'd have got into bad trouble with some real racist nutters.

 

[Spion]

the sp line seemed the best to settle the situation.

How did that work?

 

[Brainaddict]

First comment in ages that made me laugh out loud..

You did realise it was aimed at you too? In fact, you more than anyone on the thread cos you started the pointless thing

 

[discokermit]

So, how did it pan out? When you had to say what best summed up what you thought, what did you say?

Did you get chance to say what you were thinking deep down at all?

I worked in toolrooms round Brum for quite a few years and depending on the particular shop it was more or less difficult to say what you thought. Some places I could say what I wanted, some I had to really watch myself, or even choke back some of what I was thinking because I'd have got into bad trouble with some real racist nutters.

it seems to be panning out ok. we're dead busy at the mo, all on one big job, which is great as there is a sort of "mucking in together" attitude. it's when things are slack that the backbiting starts.

i haven't had chance to say what i really think, it's been out the news for a bit so we haven't talked about it much lately, but i'm not really sure what to think, either.

even when i should watch my lip, i can't. i've got a big mouth and sometimes a short fuse, i've been sacked a few times but the nutters on the shop floor seem to always end up liking me. even if i offer them out for a fight. weird really.

basically, if i knew what to say, i'd probably say it too loud and too often, but i don't. so i've kept fairly schtum. i'm finding it all very difficult.

 

[discokermit]

How did that work?

fairly well. i have a good relationship with the hungarian lads, they became a little panicky and defensive when the story first broke and i managed to convince them they weren't under attack.

i wanted to believe it and was convincing myself it was the correct line to take. i have a lot of time for the socialist party.
after saying it out loud i felt a bit uncomfortable though.

 

[dennisr]

fairly well. i have a good relationship with the hungarian lads, they became a little panicky and defensive when the story first broke and i managed to convince them they weren't under attack.

i wanted to believe it and was convincing myself it was the correct line to take. i have a lot of time for the socialist party.
after saying it out loud i felt a bit uncomfortable though.

interesting comments. lets make if clear - there was a mood developing which in a vacuam could has gone in a very dodgy direction, especially with a dodgy leadership role - after all its what the media wanted so they could then condemn. In that sense there is no difference in the SWP and SPs arguements. But, and its a big but, the underlying cause has very little to do with the initial poor expression of some. The central role of those who can se the dangers in the slogan is to take up concrete solutions to what are concrete problems. Thats where maybe you can say 'party line's' differed. It's about HOW you cut across the crap.

I don't think you would agree with standing asside and leave working people to the lies of some of the scum who appeared opportunistically on the picket lines at the beginning of the dispute (directly because of the media propaganda and mistaken bjfbw placards) - would you mate? - If, as I assume, you would have tried to put across an alternative, then you supported the correct approach - don't be worrying yourself about that.

Youve worked - like me and others here - with a real mixed bag. And you know how even among that mixed bag most arn't goosestepping nazis - the minority of concious racists can be cut across - the crap 'ideas' isolated with a simple injection of common sense worker unity demands. Not by pointing the finger and condemning all for being 'racists' but by saying 'that divides us, this unites' - aiming the demands at the the real enemy, the employers. Genuine dyed in the wool bigots are isolated and neutralised - in that weakened position you can take up the more idiotic ideas and expose them. You arn't going to be able to do that in any workplace by condemning all your workmates for being racists in advance just becasue some have taken up crude slogans offered up without thinking through the consequences. And you definately do not join in with media scare stories and distortions - and that sadly was the end result of the SWPs line - one which seems to think the Lindsey workers were just stupid bigots.

The bjfbw line seems to have come mainly from the very mixed bag that make up the bearfacts site. in the absence of any union material the bearfacts posters where the ones held up at the start. it took little time and just a little bit of patience to cut across those slogans - that does not sound like some primal backward nationalist majority to me.

Years ago through a series of small disputes on a site i managed to win over this huge nf bonehead an old time scooter skin - there's no way i could have tackled him physically and he was well liked as an individual. He was initially neutralised by talking sense about issues in common with workmates to workmates. To my surprise, when we eventually talked through my hatred of what his ideas represented (only possible because i was now in a strong position with the rest of the fellas), he raised points about genuine socialist ideas, he wasn't ultimately stupid and wanted to talk - we managed to convince him over a couple of months of serious resulting discussion. But lets remember - the Lindsey workers are not and never were a bunch of open or concious racists - the fella I am remembering here is just a sharp example of how we can best cut across confused and divisive slogans, attitudes etc. I was only in a position like this with this individual - weirdly 'respected' by a then ejet fascist - because I had put forward tactics, strategies, slogans and demands that were appropriate to winning the disputes.

 

[dennisr]

Plenty of practical views from strikers here:

Construction workers' battle to defend jobs and conditions - Fiddlers Ferry
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/6882
"Unite members: "We were on a job in Trafford Park, in Manchester. The company had some Polish lads in, kept them on a different section, we knew they were being paid less. But we made contact, got them in the union. They formed a shop with a steward, and we got them employed 'cards in'. And once they were employed properly, the company finished them and they disappeared. The companies are just using these people".


and here:

Welcome to the JIB!
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/6883
Steve Acheson, blacklisted electrician, and a member of Unite, distributed this leaflet at the construction engineering shop stewards' meeting on 9 February. He wanted to show what happens if union-negotiated agreements are undermined.