Olmert: Israeli lives worth more than Palestinian ones

[moono]

The Zionists forced Hamas to give up their ceasefire, no doubt about it. This action is one consequence. For the Zionists to blame Hamas, or indeed Fatah, for this action is hypocrisy of the worst kind, the kind that kills people.

The Zionists have killed over eight hundred Palestinians since August 2004 when Hamas declared their ceasefire. Many of them were women, many were children, many had no associations with the resistance at all. The murder , by shelling, of an entire Palestinian family at a beach picnic left Hamas no choice. They know they cannot win, but they also know that they cannot do nothing. Imo, an attack on the Zionist military was their best option. They injured no civilians this time, unlike the IOF who slaughter them daily.

Why don't you go in for a career in diplomacy, moono?

I detest Dumptyism.

 

[xiannaix]

So, a Russian rescue helicopter attending a shipwreck has a duty to airlift only Russians first ?

Obviously not. There are humanitarian principles which over-ride nationalism. Essentially, we're all brothers and the border thing is bollox.

Not necessarily - I don't think Israel (nor, I would assert, do most reasonable people) views the events at issue here to be the equivalent to rescuing people from a sinking ship. They instead see it as national security and with regard to that issue it is quite right and proper for the leader of a state to protect the lives of his own before the "other" especially when that is the source of the attack.

 

[xiannaix]

The Palestinian family picnicking on a beach weren't trying to kill anybody.

The IOF, their paymasters and supporters, are degenerate. Olmert's comment was simply an attempt to slap a fig leaf over his Zionist immorality.

Sure, Israel fucked up and killed people they shouldn't have.

But, the big difference is that it was a fuck up. Hamas et al blowing up civilians in a shopping district is with intent. There is a difference between targeting a civilian population center because its easily attacked and can score a large number of deaths and fucking up. The dead are still dead to be sure but the intent of the killers is relevent.

 

[xiannaix]

Only in the narrow sense that leaders should be working for the people whom they are accountable to. For instance, Blair should do what the british public wants him to do rather than what the americans want him to do. However, going beyond that and saying that the life of a british citizen is more important than the life of some other country's citizen is not something I can identify with.

But that's not what I was saying. I wasn't saying that the inherent value of a person is relative to his nationality and I do not believe that either.

I'm saying that the leader of a country has a duty to protect his citizens and that inherent in that is the need to make choices. Amongst them is the fact that he must choose to protect his citizens first and others second.

 

[dylanredefined]

Bet the Palestians have seen those videos though and some of them might think it would be a good idea .Hopefully their bosses are cleverer .

 

[moono]

xiannaix;

Sure, Israel fucked up and killed people they shouldn't have.

Lol. You talk as if it were a one-off. I'll bet you couldn't even entertain the thought that it was deliberate, the result of a policy, even if that policy was an unofficial one struck by the arseholes that fired.

 

[rachamim18]

Dylan: Regardless of whether or not the soldier is killed [and he most likely is already], Israel will not tarhet "innocent Palestinians."


Moono: We are all brothers? Try reading the HAMAS Charter some time.

As for the analogy of a shipwreck, life is not a humanitarian mission. However, if or example Japan were to be torpedoing that russian ship, and somehow Japanese nationals ended up in the drink along with Rusasians, rest assured that Russians would be picked up first.

Zionist immorality? Degenerates? Do you find the Islamnic conept of "waqf" to be degenerate as well? What about HAMAS' mission statement? Interesrtingly, you never seem to utter a single word about that paticular subject, even when parroting the most extreme of Arab propaganda,

No, the soldier is NOT a guarantee against focused foiling of HAMAS officials. In fact, it is the exact opposite. Evidently you do not even research Israeli policies.

As for equating focused foiling of HAMAS officials with assasinating Israeli officials, you should also research the subject of International LAw that you are always talking on and on about. HAMAS is an illegal entity in every sense of the word. The fact that they were elcted does not negate that. HAMAS is alkso illegal under PA Law!!!!!

Zionists forced HAMAS to give up its ceasefire? OK, forget the attempted suicide bombing one week after they "comitted" to the ceasefire...What of the unrelenting barrage of Qassams? Is that not a violation?

Your whole screed about "Zionists blaming HAMAS or fatah" makes no sense at all.

The 800 figure you quote is nonsense, as I often point out, as is your unequivocal claim that Israel is without a doubt responsbile for the beach incident.

Panda: "Assumption that the 'Palestinians' who kidnapped the Israeli soldier would act like Zarqawi..." Comnsidering what "Palestinian" militants have done in the past to Israeli captives, Zarqawi would be a breath of fresh air. Certainly you recall the two off duty Israeli soldiers torn limb from limb shown live on tv? Or the other Israeli soldiers also torn literally to pieces and strung from a bridge? Sadly, that soldier is a kid. Older ones like myself know to commit suicide if taken.

 

[moono]

If the Zionists assassinate Palestinians, Rachamim, then the Palestinians should assassinate Zionists. Naturally, international mediators should not allow Zionists to assassinate Palestinians in the first instance, but lacking any intervention from them the Palestinians have no choice.

I would think that assassinating a full-on fascist, such as Olmert, ought to create enough attention for the international community to make their long-overdue entrance and put a stop to the Zionist assassination squads.

As for the number of Palestinians murdered since August 2004, it's over eight hundred. I've posted the casualty list twice already but I'll gladly do it again if anybody wants me to show you up as the liar you are.
They're probably bored with it already but the offer stands.

No, the soldier is NOT a guarantee against focused foiling of HAMAS officials. In fact, it is the exact opposite. Evidently you do not even research Israeli policies.

By the murdering actions of your government it's evident that they don't study Hamas policies. If you continue killing them then they are going to continue killing you, and good luck to them.

 

[xiannaix]

xiannaix;


Lol. You talk as if it were a one-off. I'll bet you couldn't even entertain the thought that it was deliberate, the result of a policy, even if that policy was an unofficial one struck by the arseholes that fired.

Please try to keep your comments directed at my comments - not at me - and don't presume to know what I think or believe. It's impolite and adds nothing to the discussion.


I don't believe it was an isloated occurance and I do believe that the Israelies are far too careless. Further, I have no doubt at all that they have targetted specific civilians for assassination. Condemnable in all cases.

So too are the attacks by Palestinians. There's plenty of blame to go around.

 

[moono]

Please try to keep your comments directed at my comments - not at me - and don't presume to know what I think or believe. It's impolite and adds nothing to the discussion

Don't try feeding me that self-righteous and pompous pap. You've already stated that the beach shelling was an accident, that's how I know what you think.

Sure, Israel fucked up and killed people they shouldn't have.

But, the big difference is that it was a fuck up.

 

[TAE]

If the Zionists assassinate Palestinians, Rachamim, then the Palestinians should assassinate Zionists.

I really don't think anyone should take lessons from right wing nationalists.

In fact I think Hamas should do whatever they can to make sure the captured IDF soldier is treated according to the geneva convention, is given access to the red cross/crescent (or whoever is most appropriet), and is eventually released unharmed.

 

[xiannaix]

Don't try feeding me that self-righteous and pompous pap. You've already stated that the beach shelling was an accident, that's how I know what you think.

From a very raw and purely removed perspective:


There is no value to Israel in killing a family on the beach.

Israel is not above targetting civilians for assassination - but that doesn't include shelling a family on the beach.


To lump the two together greatly simplifies something that shouldn't be. Again, you know what I wrote but clearly do not understand what I think. Now please take off your magic hat Kreskin.

 

[xiannaix]

In fact I think Hamas should do whatever they can to make sure the captured IDF soldier is treated according to the geneva convention, is given access to the red cross/crescent (or whoever is most appropriet), and is eventually released unharmed.

If they want credibility they should. If they want western aid the should. If they wish to be humane they should. It is, under only the most stupid of rationales that they woudn't. However, there seems no shortage of stupid in the leadership of that part of the world.

 

[moono]

From a very raw and purely removed perspective:

Spare me the wriggling. One can't hold two different views over the space of two posts.

 

[xiannaix]

Spare me the wriggling. One can't hold two different views over the space of two posts.

I didn't - I clarifed it for you. If you don't accept the clarification; fine, but don't attribute comments to me by implication.

The Israelies do target and kill civilians - a family on the beach is not amongst the type of civilians they target.

 

[Lock&Light]

Spare me the wriggling. One can't hold two different views over the space of two posts.

This is the kind of blindness I've been regretting in you since you joined these boards.

 

[moono]

I didn't - I clarifed it for you. If you don't accept the clarification; fine, but don't attribute comments to me by implication.

The Israelies do target and kill civilians - a family on the beach is not amongst the type of civilians they target.

It's not 'by implication ' though , is it. Your opinion was quite clear, the shelling was an accident, you said.

Imo, the Zionists are more than capable of dropping the odd shell onto a beach party. They have been desperate to involve Hamas in responses for some time. If you believe that then you will know that people on a beach are , to them, suitable targets. What divine insight allows you to state that these are NOT the type of civilians they target ?

This is the kind of blindness I've been regretting in you since you joined these boards.

People with a genuine opinion, even evidence, ought to be protected from tripe like yours. You don't contribute anything of worth.

 

[Lock&Light]

You don't contribute anything of worth.

And it therefore it goes without saying that you do!

 

[Lock&Light]

I detest Dumptyism.

Your detestation flows through all your postings, and can not be missed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: "Assumption that the 'Palestinians' who kidnapped the Israeli soldier would act like Zarqawi..." Comnsidering what "Palestinian" militants have done in the past to Israeli captives, Zarqawi would be a breath of fresh air. Certainly you recall the two off duty Israeli soldiers torn limb from limb shown live on tv? Or the other Israeli soldiers also torn literally to pieces and strung from a bridge? Sadly, that soldier is a kid. Older ones like myself know to commit suicide if taken.

This smells like you're attempting to paint Palestinians as uniquely fiendish in their treatment of enemy soldiers.

Not true though, is it? I recall British soldiers suffering much the same fate in Ulster, US soldiers suffering much the same fate in Somalia.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get my point about your deminisation of "the enemy".

 

[Lock&Light]

This smells like you're attempting to paint Palestinians as uniquely fiendish in their treatment of enemy soldiers.

Not true though, is it? I recall British soldiers suffering much the same fate in Ulster, US soldiers suffering much the same fate in Somalia.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get my point about your deminisation of "the enemy".

The point you seem to be missing is that Israeli soldiers are not "demons" any more that Palestinian freedom fighters are.

They're all HUMAN, for Fucks Sake!!

 

[TAE]

Amazing how the person's humanity can suddenly become so relevant depending on who's side they are on ...

 

[moono]

Lol. This guy L&L is consistent in that he's very neutral towards Palestinians and surprisingly supportive of Zionists.

 

[xiannaix]

It's not 'by implication ' though , is it. Your opinion was quite clear, the shelling was an accident, you said.

Imo, the Zionists are more than capable of dropping the odd shell onto a beach party. They have been desperate to involve Hamas in responses for some time. If you believe that then you will know that people on a beach are , to them, suitable targets. What divine insight allows you to state that these are NOT the type of civilians they target ?


People with a genuine opinion, even evidence, ought to be protected from tripe like yours. You don't contribute anything of worth.

And I think your opinion is greatly overcast and is treading the line between paranoid and stupid. Is that how this little ad hominem game you're fond of works? Shall I consider other insults for the inevitable ones to follow in your response or can you try to play nice?

I said the shelling was an accident - actually I said it was a fuck up. I still believe that. I believe that is, given our limited access to the inside of the heads of those who ordered and carried out the attack a more plausible explanation than one that requires a great deal more steps. Occam would not be kind to your explanation.


Anyway - If you're willing to believe that the Israelies would shell Palestinian civilians on the beach and weather the inevitable international shit storm just to provoke Hamas we've little reason to continue. Israel will kill Palestinians without need to claim to be responding to X y or Z if they feel it suits them.

 

[moono]

X;

I said the shelling was an accident - actually I said it was a fuck up. I still believe that. I believe that is, given our limited access to the inside of the heads of those who ordered and carried out the attack a more plausible explanation than one that requires a great deal more steps. Occam would not be kind to your explanation.

Occam isn't getting shelled , is he.

You seem unaware of the Zionist's form regarding the 'accidental' deaths of Palestinian civilians, such as, and I select a shocking example, schoolchildren being 'accidentally' shot through the head by IOF snipers with high-tech scopes.
Considering the technology available to the gunners, and the prevailing weather and visibility conditions, the simplest explanation is that the beach was shelled deliberately. Then you include the statements of many witnesses, the opinion of independent experts and the actual forensic evidence and the only missing factor is why the Zionists did it.

You think it was an accident. Let's see what you think the next time .

Israel will kill Palestinians without need to claim to be responding to X y or Z if they feel it suits them.

No mate, you're wrong. The media spotlight hampers their activities. They are too dependent upon hand-outs, at the American taxpayers expense, to seriously get down to clearing 'Palestinian vermin'.

 

[likesfish]

just one problem with that the technology isn't that high tech its a shell on a boat boat moves up and down so gun barrel moves up and down
artillerly often known as drop shorts from habit of shelling there own troops by mistake

 

[moono]

Mate, this ain't The Victory with powder barrels and a ram. Modern naval gunnery has had perfect stabilisation and gyroscopic control for years. Anyway, according to reports the shell landed 250 metres wide. They were actually shelling the beach 250 metres from bathers. Nothing 'long' or 'short' about it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The point you seem to be missing is that Israeli soldiers are not "demons" any more that Palestinian freedom fighters are.

I haven't missed the point at all.

It isn't germane, because I haven't claimed, intimated or otherwise hinted that I believe that IDF members are "demons".

They're not, they're human beings, capable of the full range of acts, from altrusim to extreme and horrendous violence, that all of us are capable of.

They're all HUMAN, for Fucks Sake!!

Tell me something I don't know.

Who knows, if you ever progress beyond mouthing the obvious (and acting as though you've spoken gems of wisdom) you might even garner a little respect on these boards, instead of amused contempt.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Mate, this ain't The Victory with powder barrels and a ram. Modern naval gunnery has had perfect stabilisation and gyroscopic control for years. Anyway, according to reports the shell landed 250 metres wide. They were actually shelling the beach 250 metres from bathers. Nothing 'long' or 'short' about it.

Not "perfect", but certainly good enough to allow reasonable accuracy with even a half-trained gunnery crew.

 

[Lock&Light]

Who knows, if you ever progress beyond mouthing the obvious (and acting as though you've spoken gems of wisdom) you might even garner a little respect on these boards, instead of amused contempt.

What a pompous, condescending and patronising bag of humbug you are!