old labour mps to be put out to seed

[poster342002]

See Bernie Grant, and the confidence having him as a representive gave to the black community in Britain.

Can you back this up with empirical evidence?

Please give examples of confidence gained by black working class people as a direct result of the election of Bernie Grant.

 

[Random]

See Bernie Grant, and the confidence having him as a representive gave to the black community in Britain.

But apparently the 'right' non-black could have done the same or better? And likewise the 'right' upper class person makes the better socialist?

 

[Sue]

See Bernie Grant, and the confidence having him as a representive gave to the black community in Britain.

See David Lammy, and the confidence having him as a representive gave to the black community in Britain.

Er....

 

[butchersapron]

See Bernie Grant, and the confidence having him as a representive gave to the black community in Britain.

But their background doesn't matter. You just told us so.

 

[Sorry.]

See Bernie Grant, and the confidence having him as a representive gave to the black community in Britain.

So do working class MPs give confidence to the working class community?

 

[Random]

Poor old Rebel

 

[hibee]

See Bernie Grant, and the confidence having him as a representive gave to the black community in Britain.

By that line of argument a "white community" would be given "confidence" by the election of Nick Griffin.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I have done so before at some length on Urban and so am rather loathe to do so again.

However, IWCA London mayoral election material described asylum seekers as a 'problem', and their councillor Stuart Craft in Oxford is to all intents and purposes pro-Iraq war. This dropping of internationalism comes from their open reformism, which focuses attention on trying to use the British capitalist state to deliver for working class people, and so buys into nationalist ideology at a basic level. Basically, much of their politics is simply 'Old Labour' substance given new spin - and most of their (limited) success is due to the failure of the 3 major political parties to deliver for working class people and people being willing to vote for an alternative. Most people see the word 'Independent' at the front and think - that'll do me.

RW put your post graduate skills to some purpose and lets have the quotes to support both assertions re. Lorna and Stuart please.

As for the 'dropping of internationalism' that only rings true if your idea of effective internationalism is an ignored headline in a scarcely read newspaper. To be an effective internationalist in the context of the Iraq war would mean taking material actions that provided real support for progressive forces inside Iraq (not simply calling for victory to the resistance), or changing the course of government at home.

Having been in and previously committed to 'old Labour', I can tell you that the methods (the surveys, direct actions, democratic accountability) and aspirations (working class rule in working class areas as part of the process of total social change) of the IWCA are some way removed from the practice and desire of what now passes for 'old Labour'.

Finally seeing as you have never talked to IWCA voters, your claim that all they see is the word 'independent' and tick the box accordingly, is a lie and one which insults the intelligence of those working class people who support the association; perhaps they're just 'scum of the estates' or some such dismissive formulation?

Louis Mac

 

[Pickman's model]

See Bernie Grant, and the confidence having him as a representive gave to the black community in Britain.

did you ever meet bernie grant, rw?

i did, in the summer of 1990, when i went to a meeting at which he spoke.

as you may recall, he was one of the mps who promised not to pay the poll tax. i raised this issue with him briefly then, and he reiterated his position.

needless to say, some months later, he paid the fucking thing.

when bernie grant was leader of haringey council, he presided over all manner of cuts - and royally fucked over the people of the borough.

some fucking example, rw.

 

[Pickman's model]

Poor old Rebel

he is - in lenin's immortal phrase - as thick as pigshit.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

So do working class MPs give confidence to the working class community?

What's the problem here with what RW is saying? Of course black MP's per se don't do anything for anti-racism. But if they're prepared to say the things that black people feel about the police etc then yes of course it does. Ditto for working-class MPs.

 

[Pickman's model]

What's the problem here with what RW is saying? Of course black MP's per se don't do anything for anti-racism. But if they're prepared to say the things that black people feel about the police etc then yes of course it does. Ditto for working-class MPs.

what's that lady scotland said about black women's experiences, then?

frankly this assertion that mps speak out for their ethnick groups is one i find distasteful. & it shows just how much class-based politicks mean to the swp/ruc now - not a lot.

 

[poster342002]

did you ever meet bernie grant, rw?

i did, in the summer of 1990, when i went to a meeting at which he spoke.

as you may recall, he was one of the mps who promised not to pay the poll tax. i raised this issue with him briefly then, and he reiterated his position.

needless to say, some months later, he paid the fucking thing.

when bernie grant was leader of haringey council, he presided over all manner of cuts - and royally fucked over the people of the borough.

some fucking example, rw.

I surprised he hasn't started up in favour of Diane Abbott...

 

[Sue]

I surprised he hasn't started up in favour of Diane Abbott...

Or Oonagh King...?

 

[Pickman's model]

I surprised he hasn't started up in favour of Diane Abbott...

yeh - her & lady scotland - what have they said about black women's experiences, then? and it's a fucking disgrace, abbott's been mp for hackney since 1987, and clearly in 18 years not too much has improved in hackney's schools...

 

[Pickman's model]

Or Oonagh King...?

she's got her own problems now, though.

 

[butchersapron]

What's the problem here with what RW is saying? Of course black MP's per se don't do anything for anti-racism. But if they're prepared to say the things that black people feel about the police etc then yes of course it does. Ditto for working-class MPs.

It doesn't work for w/c mps though - he's made that quite explicit. Race/religion can affect you, but not class, oh no - that what he's offered us. And him a 'marxist'.

And by christ i bet he was glad to see you get back from the school run

 

[Wilf]

That is the 'democratic deficit' that Respect is trying to fill.

Okay RW, bear with me:

you want to remedy the democratic defecit?

You think that can be done by electing more black/female/godbothering MPs?

This implies that a 'representative' parliament can deliver better policies, fight racism, stop wars etc. Yes?

You are still a 'revolutionary socialist'?

 

[Sorry.]

What's the problem here with what RW is saying? Of course black MP's per se don't do anything for anti-racism. But if they're prepared to say the things that black people feel about the police etc then yes of course it does. Ditto for working-class MPs.

I know you're obliged to step in and help your comrades. But RW has been contradicting himself all over the shop here. He stated that background was irrelevant, then racial background was relevant. Now you've wandered in by saying that black MPs and working-class MPs can be important dependent on their politics, which has pretty much bugger all to do with what RW wrote.

 

[rebel warrior]

I know you're obliged to step in and help your comrades. But RW has been contradicting himself all over the shop here. He stated that background was irrelevant, then racial background was relevant. Now you've wandered in by saying that black MPs and working-class MPs can be important dependent on their politics, which has pretty much bugger all to do with what RW wrote.

Er, except what I wrote in post 61 was:

However, what is wanted are not just more working class and more black and asian MPs - but crucially more socialist MPs like Galloway and the best of the Old Labour bunch, that stand for peace and liberty. That is the 'democratic deficit' that Respect is trying to fill.

Which implies that I do see politics as being the crucial thing.

 

[Sorry.]

Which implies that I do see politics as being the crucial thing.

And the two posts that followed it - saying that background was a irrelevant, then making an exception for racial backgrounds?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Er, except what I wrote in post 61 was:



Which implies that I do see politics as being the crucial thing.

If politics arepolitical the crucial thing, then why on another thread didn't you come back to me on the 'crucial' question of people having dual membership of Respect and the Islamic Party of Britain; afterall the latter's anti-gay and anti-communist politics are at odds with the politics which you calim that Respect stands for and which you set store by?

Louis Mac

p.s. there are also some unanswered questions on this thread to e.g. evidence re. Lorna and Stuart, the all too apparent contracdiction between your understanding of the material impacts of class and ethnicity...in your own time.

 

[Pickman's model]

Er, except what I wrote in post 61 was:



Which implies that I do see politics as being the crucial thing.

so why are your's so crap?

 

[Sorry.]

p.s. there are also some unanswered questions on this thread to e.g. evidence re. Lorna and Stuart, the all too apparent contracdiction between your understanding of the material impacts of class and ethnicity...in your own time.

Not forgetting a political explanation of the Labour Party's institutional racism, rather than an infantile one; cleverly sidestepped by saying something stupid to distract me ...

 

[Streathamite]

yeh - her & lady scotland - what have they said about black women's experiences, then? and it's a fucking disgrace, abbott's been mp for hackney since 1987, and clearly in 18 years not too much has improved in hackney's schools...

none of which, of course, her son will be gracing with his presence!

 

[sevenstars]

If my memory is right Dianne Abbot herself took the constituency from white left winger Ernie Roberts, who was a strong Anti-Nazi league supporter and as such had the sympathies of the SWP at the time.

While its undeniable that parliament is instiutinally racist and sexist, replacing off message old labour types with on message middle class women and minorities is really not something socialists would defend, even if we would accept that the argument can be a bit complex sometimes

The crucial questions for me are about democracy and accoutability. Someone imposed on a constituency by a hierarchy owes their loyalty to that hieararchy, not to the constiuency nor those from a similiar class, racial or religious background.

I am also interested , RW, in how you define a socialist MP. The model many of us argue for is workers representatives on workers wages, like the SSP MSP's you have rightly defended here.

While i have no problem supporting George Galloway for his principled anti-war stance and his excellent election victory, I'm not convinced that makes him a socialist or that its neccessary to make this claim for him within Respect.

 

[exosculate]

he is - in lenin's immortal phrase - as thick as pigshit.

Is that in the 'State and Effluencion'?

 

[Pickman's model]

Is that in the 'State and Effluencion'?

i think so.