old labour mps to be put out to seed

[rebel warrior]

I would like an explanation why rw, a little political analysis! Not just an assertion that this is so. An institution is not racist purely because it doesn't fulfil the correct ratio of non-whites. There has to be a mechanism by which it discriminates on the basis of race.

The recruitment of 'on-message' minority candidates suggests that the main concern of the government is the message, not the race of who's delivering it, at the very least surely?

Fine. The Tories have only two black or asian MPs because as a party they are not just institutionally racist but also the majority of them are racist (though this is sometimes hidden) politically.

The Lib Dems don't have any black or asian MPs because their main concern when they fight elections is to win power at any cost - and so fear that black or asian candidates might alienate a few racist voters so tend to compromise. They will stand black or asian candidates - providing the evidence suggests they would almost certainly lose without one.

Labour are more interesting. They are outwardly anti-racist - yet their reformist politics mean that they buy into nationalist ideas and wage racist wars. Their reformism, which leads them to a desire to win and counts success in votes only, means they also are not averse to trying to court racists votes - see their attacks on immigrants etc etc. This explains both why they have at least some black or asian MPs but also why the ones they have are just a token presence.

Interestingly, what applies to Labour here also applies more or less to the IWCA as well, but lets not digress. Louis's point about 'how many working class MPs are there?' is a valid one - there is also a massive injustice here. However, what is wanted are not just more working class and more black and asian MPs - but crucially more socialist MPs like Galloway and the best of the Old Labour bunch, that stand for peace and liberty. That is the 'democratic deficit' that Respect is trying to fill.

 

[butchersapron]

Interestingly, what applies to Labour here also applies more or less to the IWCA as well, but lets not digress.

You really can't help yourself can you?

As for:

" However, what is wanted are not just more working class and more black and asian MPs - but crucially more socialist MPs like Galloway and the best of the Old Labour bunch, that stand for peace and liberty"

"and wage racist wars"

And you call yourself a marxist?

 

[Sue]

Labour are more interesting. They are outwardly anti-racist - yet their reformist politics mean that they buy into nationalist ideas and wage racist wars. Their reformism, which leads them to a desire to win and counts success in votes only, means they also are not averse to trying to court racists votes - see their attacks on immigrants etc etc. This explains both why they have at least some black or asian MPs but also why the ones they have are just a token presence.

Interestingly, what applies to Labour here also applies more or less to the IWCA as well, but lets not digress. QUOTE]

Please do digress...

 

[Pickman's model]

What Labour and the other main parties are doing is rather like what the Police or armed services are doing - trying to recruit more non-white members - they have to do it because they are so unrepresentative in the first place.

a bit like the institutionally racist ruc, then.

 

[butchersapron]

Please do digress...

I think he should as well, as he's just bascially called the IWCA institutionaly racist.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

None - at a guess.

Definition of working class maybe required however.

The majority of people in this country are working class; therefore parliament is not representing the majority of the population. So perhaps RW or Groucho would care to explain why they seem so keen to promote the representation of people from ethnic minorities (based on their assumption of a neccessary coincidence between ethnic identity and political interest), while why not doing the same when it comes to class?

Louis Mac

 

[exosculate]

I think he should as well, as he's just bascially called the IWCA institutionaly racist.

Why do you bother, RW is a simpleton.

 

[exosculate]

The majority of people in this country are working class; therefore parliament is not representing the majority of the population. So perhaps RW or Groucho would care to explain why they seem so keen to promote the representation of people from ethnic minorities (based on their assumption of a neccessary coincidence between ethic identity and political interest), while why not doing the same when it comes to class?

Louis Mac

Probably down to their Islamic obsession.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think he should as well, as he's just bascially called the IWCA institutionaly racist.

he's not the sharpest pencil in the pack, with his tarring his own party with institutional racism shows.

 

[butchersapron]

Why do you bother, RW is a simpleton.

For kicks really. And i'm just killing time till work in a few hours. I don't expect anything helpful to come of it anymore. We all know which posters to read if we want serious discussion by now. There's diminishing returns though.

 

[Pickman's model]

Fine. The Tories have only two black or asian MPs because as a party they are not just institutionally racist but also the majority of them are racist (though this is sometimes hidden) politically.

The Lib Dems don't have any black or asian MPs because their main concern when they fight elections is to win power at any cost - and so fear that black or asian candidates might alienate a few racist voters so tend to compromise. They will stand black or asian candidates - providing the evidence suggests they would almost certainly lose without one.

Labour are more interesting. They are outwardly anti-racist - yet their reformist politics mean that they buy into nationalist ideas and wage racist wars. Their reformism, which leads them to a desire to win and counts success in votes only, means they also are not averse to trying to court racists votes - see their attacks on immigrants etc etc. This explains both why they have at least some black or asian MPs but also why the ones they have are just a token presence.

Interestingly, what applies to Labour here also applies more or less to the IWCA as well, but lets not digress. Louis's point about 'how many working class MPs are there?' is a valid one - there is also a massive injustice here. However, what is wanted are not just more working class and more black and asian MPs - but crucially more socialist MPs like Galloway and the best of the Old Labour bunch, that stand for peace and liberty. That is the 'democratic deficit' that Respect is trying to fill.

why did the ruc stand a white xian man in an area with a sizeable asian mohammedan population? smax of dubious practices to me...

 

[Louis MacNeice]

RW please tell us all about how the IWCA is racist like the Labour Party.

Louis Mac

 

[laptop]

Is there any chance of some 'off message' black MPs - a la Bernie Grant.

Hmm. I see two possibilities:

1. In 1975 a very young socialist couple make a thorough analysis of the direction of the Labour Party. They abjure all political activity, and devote themselves to raising twins who they name Tarquin and Persephone. But there is a secret soundproof room in the family home in which, out of earshot of the Centre's spies, an extensive programme of political education is conducted while outwardly everything appears to be bovine consumerism. Thirty years later... OR:
2. An actual Tarquin or Persephone is elected, shortly thereafter suffers a traumatic head injury which freakishly imbues them with socialist politics.

 

[rebel warrior]

Please do digress...

I have done so before at some length on Urban and so am rather loathe to do so again.

However, IWCA London mayoral election material described asylum seekers as a 'problem', and their councillor Stuart Craft in Oxford is to all intents and purposes pro-Iraq war. This dropping of internationalism comes from their open reformism, which focuses attention on trying to use the British capitalist state to deliver for working class people, and so buys into nationalist ideology at a basic level. Basically, much of their politics is simply 'Old Labour' substance given new spin - and most of their (limited) success is due to the failure of the 3 major political parties to deliver for working class people and people being willing to vote for an alternative. Most people see the word 'Independent' at the front and think - that'll do me.

 

[butchersapron]

I have done so before at some length on Urban and so am rather loathe to do so again.

However, IWCA London mayoral election material described asylum seekers as a 'problem', and their councillor Stuart Craft in Oxford is to all intents and purposes pro-Iraq war. This dropping of internationalism comes from their open reformism, which focuses attention on trying to use the British capitalist state to deliver for working class people, and so buys into nationalist ideology at a basic level.

He says this as he moans about the make up of parliament. You couldn't make this shite up could you?

 

[butchersapron]

This dropping of internationalism comes from their open reformism, which focuses attention on trying to use the British capitalist state to deliver for working class people, and so buys into nationalist ideology at a basic level.

Make the connection please.

 

[Sorry.]

Labour are more interesting. They are outwardly anti-racist - yet their reformist politics mean that they buy into nationalist ideas and wage racist wars. Their reformism, which leads them to a desire to win and counts success in votes only, means they also are not averse to trying to court racists votes - see their attacks on immigrants etc etc. This explains both why they have at least some black or asian MPs but also why the ones they have are just a token presence.

Try again, you've simply elaborated on your earlier statement. Remember, the topic is the deficiency of the Labour Party in electing the correct number of non-white MPs according to the proportion of non-white people in the population as a whole. You haven't explained how this occurred.

Louis's point about 'how many working class MPs are there?' is a valid one - there is also a massive injustice here. However, what is wanted are not just more working class and more black and asian MPs - but crucially more socialist MPs like Galloway and the best of the Old Labour bunch, that stand for peace and liberty. That is the 'democratic deficit' that Respect is trying to fill.

So, the background of MPs is not relevant to the struggle for socialism?

 

[Pickman's model]

focuses attention on trying to use the British capitalist state to deliver for working class people, and so buys into nationalist ideology at a basic level.

i seem to recall one george galloway - outside a fire station in his constituency - saying that surely this country could afford a fire engine for bg&b.

why isn't that "trying to use the british capitalist state to deliver for working class people, and so buy[ing] into the nationalist ideology at a basic[k] level"?

 

[Sue]

I have done so before at some length on Urban and so am rather loathe to do so again.

However, IWCA London mayoral election material described asylum seekers as a 'problem', and their councillor Stuart Craft in Oxford is to all intents and purposes pro-Iraq war. This dropping of internationalism comes from their open reformism, which focuses attention on trying to use the British capitalist state to deliver for working class people, and so buys into nationalist ideology at a basic level. Basically, much of their politics is simply 'Old Labour' substance given new spin - and most of their (limited) success is due to the failure of the 3 major political parties to deliver for working class people and people being willing to vote for an alternative. Most people see the word 'Independent' at the front and think - that'll do me.

I can see exactly why you're 'loathe to do so again.'

So not only are any black/asian IWCA candidates so stupid as to not realise they're only there as a token presence, but the working class as a whole are also so dimwitted that they'll vote for anything?

Jesus wept.

 

[Pickman's model]

Jesus wept.

and well he might.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Louis's point about 'how many working class MPs are there?' is a valid one - there is also a massive injustice here. However, what is wanted are not just more working class and more black and asian MPs - but crucially more socialist MPs like Galloway and the best of the Old Labour bunch, that stand for peace and liberty. That is the 'democratic deficit' that Respect is trying to fill.

So the answer to representing working class interests in parliament is not to have more working class MPs (RW has clearly stated that this is not a sufficient response), but to have socialist ones. Now giving RW the benefit of the doubt by taking 'socialist' to mean pro-working class, still leaves a couple of inconsistencies in their lines of argument:

1. racism in terms of parliamentary representation is best tackled by increasing the number of MPs from ethnic minority backgrounds;

2. exploitative class relations in terms of parliament are best tackle by people with an ideological commitment to seeing their eradication.

In the first instance their is a very dangerous presumption of a coincidence of ethnic minority identification and political interest, whilst in the second there is a similarly dangerous downplaying of the material conditions which MPs enjoy in favour of their ideological commitment. Can RW or any other Respecter please square this all too apparent circle?

Louis Mac

 

[rebel warrior]

T
So, the background of MPs is not relevant to the struggle for socialism?

I think a comparison of Tony Benn and John Prescott respectively proves this to be the case.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think a comparison of Tony Benn and John Prescott respectively proves this to be the case.

what, upper class people make better socialists than working class people? that seems to be yr rather fuckwitted message...

 

[butchersapron]

Do you think that class plays any role in british society RW? Or does it just affect the thick w/c?

A marxist you say?

 

[Sorry.]

I think a comparison of Tony Benn and John Prescott respectively proves this to be the case.

Right. So what is the relevance of the ethnic background of Labour MPs to the struggle for socialism?

 

[Pickman's model]

I think a comparison of Tony Benn and John Prescott respectively proves this to be the case.

could you please address the issues of racism - and nationalism - within the ruc, which you have raised but are yet to face.

 

[butchersapron]

Right. So what is the relevance of the ethnic background of Labour MPs to the struggle for socialism?

Got him every which way.

 

[Sorry.]

What is 'Parliamentary cretinism' however, is to defend the mainstream parties record on these matters and to defend the fact that there are so few minority MPs in Parliament on the spurious grounds that it is not somehow of relevance to the struggle for socialism.

Contradiction?

 

[Pickman's model]

Got him every which way.

game set & match, in't it?

 

[rebel warrior]

Right. So what is the relevance of the ethnic background of Labour MPs to the struggle for socialism?

See Bernie Grant, and the confidence having him as a representive gave to the black community in Britain.