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Oil & Gas shortages will lead to poverty and fascism

jæd said:
I would guess people would rather have the risks of self-determination than live in a country that will never develop because of the thugs in charge, no matter how "benevolent" they may be...

Why would the Cuban people want to return to the order imposed on them by the US under the Platt Amendment? Btw the Platt Amendment allowed the US to intervene/interfere with country as and when it wished; a policy that continued right up until the revolution.

So, in your mind, the US are "benevolent" too - hein?
 
Fruitloop said:
Slaar, I have a lot of repect for you opinions in the general course of things, but these are tired old arguments that need to be consigned to the dustbin.

Let's get a few things straight:

Capitalism is not the result of 'human nature', but of historical circumstance. In the long march from the stone age - both technologically and socially - a large number of power structures have arisen and fallen, of which capitalism is only the most recent and is certainly not the most long-lasting. The 'end of history' view is absurdly myopic, and is already being undermined by political changes that have occured since the idea was first proposed.

How many people genuinely owe their status to bigger muscles in this day and age? Maybe the governor of California I guess. The idea that 'Humans take advantage of the conditions they find themselves in best to further themselves' is true but incredibly general, and to conflate this with a capitalistic individualism that is an incredibly recent historical development is just lousy social history. Is it not possible to see that this is propaganda in its purest sense - it is bad reconciliation in that it reconciles you to things that should be struggled against; the wholly artificial legal status of corperate entities as individual agents of emormous social power, and the role of historically recent nation-states as the referees of the great game of capitalist expansionism?

There's no need for us to agree on what the necessary courses of action are, but it would please me greatly if we could at least agree on some kind of analysis of the situation as it stands that moves beyond a relatively more refined version of the transparent propaganda that idiots repeat with near-hypnopeadic consistency. Fuck knows there's enough of that about already.
Think you've read more into what I'm saying here than I meant. I've not said anything about capitalism in the post you quoted, nor am I linking it to some kind of "end of history" narrative, which I think is bollocks as well.

Of course physical strength is less relevant today, that's why I was referring specifically to feudalism. Obviously in our societies today the qualities that make somebody successful differ from those that did 500 years ago, and also differ from place to place. Individuals and collectives shape this process, and are shaped by it in turn, this I'm sure we can agree on.

What I would say is that yes, capitalism has developed out of historical circumstance, but that it does also seem to tap very effectively into some fundamental features of human nature (as Marx recognised). That's not to say they're the noble features, or that other systems could not provide incentives for a much better array of human behaviour. But it does mean that the alternatives had better be good.

Where we differ I suspect is the extent and power with which we believe collective action can be effectively organised under conditions of extreme social stress. But I'm certainly not an "end of history" idiot.

Bakatcha - Interesting links. I was having a conversation recently with an agriculturalist who's doing a lot of work on large-scale organic methods in Morocco. The fertiliser companies apparently are going overtime on flogging inorganic fertiliser to "new" markets (i.e. sub-Saharan Africa etc) because years of soil degradation in the West is leading to a big rethink in a lot of places, and an increasing use of organic fertilisers and more sustainable methods. That will boom, big time, if the cost of oil spikes and organic fertilisers become much cheaper in relative terms. But it doesn't seem like it's true that food production will simply collapse if oil becomes much more scarce. Which is good.
 
nino_savatte said:
Why would the Cuban people want to return to the order imposed on them by the US under the Platt Amendment? Btw the Platt Amendment allowed the US to intervene/interfere with country as and when it wished; a policy that continued right up until the revolution.

So, in your mind, the US are "benevolent" too - hein?

Aye, it's self determination of the 'you are free to do as we tell you' variety no doubt.
 
slaar said:
Think you've read more into what I'm saying here than I meant. I've not said anything about capitalism in the post you quoted, nor am I linking it to some kind of "end of history" narrative, which I think is bollocks as well.

Of course physical strength is less relevant today, that's why I was referring specifically to feudalism. Obviously in our societies today the qualities that make somebody successful differ from those that did 500 years ago, and also differ from place to place. Individuals and collectives shape this process, and are shaped by it in turn, this I'm sure we can agree on.

What I would say is that yes, capitalism has developed out of historical circumstance, but that it does also seem to tap very effectively into some fundamental features of human nature (as Marx recognised). That's not to say they're the noble features, or that other systems could not provide incentives for a much better array of human behaviour. But it does mean that the alternatives had better be good.

Where we differ I suspect is the extent and power with which we believe collective action can be effectively organised under conditions of extreme social stress. But I'm certainly not an "end of history" idiot.

OK, apologies if I mistook you.
 
jæd said:
Repealed in 1934, apparently... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platt_Amendment

Perhaps someone should ask the Cuban people, rather speaking, rather grandly, for them...?

Well, you seem to think that you're speaking for them. You've already made up your mind that you know what is best for them. You even had to Google "Platt Amendment".

People in Cuba are in incredible poverty because of "Communism". If they got rid of Castro and his cronies they would be able to significantly modernise their society and bring it into the 21st C...

So what do you mean by "modernisation"?

You are familiar with Batista's rule over Cuba (1933 -59 with short breaks), I take it? You will also understand that Batista was little more than a US puppet. The Platt Amendment may have been "repealed" but its effects could still be felt in Cuba right up until the revolution.

Cuba was a haven for American organised crime; it was allowed to use Cuba to launder its money and to cut deals with other criminal organisations. It is interesting to note that the majority of Cubans who fled after the revolution were mainly criminals or supporters of Batista.
 
Fruitloop said:
Well, most Cubans would beg to disagree. But then I guess their perpective doesn't interest you.

They would...? Have they been given the choice then...? What was the result of the last General Election...? :confused:
 
nino_savatte said:
Well, you seem to think that you're speaking for them. You've already made up your mind that you know what is best for them.

Not as much as you think you do...! You do know that the UK went through periods of dictatorial rule. And now we're a democracy. Times change...
 
jæd said:
Not as much as you think you do...! You do know that the UK went through periods of dictatorial rule. And now we're a democracy. Times change...

Aye and my dad is bigger than your dad. :rolleyes:

Your knowledge of Cuba is incomplete and almost entirely based upon the US's view of the country. It is part of the the dogma disseminated by US anti-cmmmunist cultists - which means that it is entirely narrativised and has been repackaged to give the cultists something to foam at the mouth over for a few moments.

As for this country being a "democracy" you might want to have a look at the definition of the word. In fact, you might want to read up on what monarchs and the rulers thought of "democracy" prior to the 19th century and why only a limited form of enfranchisement was granted to the people (remembering, of course, that women did not have the vote until the 20th century).
 
jæd said:
They would...? Have they been given the choice then...? What was the result of the last General Election...? :confused:

I think it was a 98% turnout. There is only one legal party, but the candidates themselves are chosen at a local level.
 
Why is it every thread devolves into either 'only capitalism is compatible with human nature', or an argument about Cuba, or both? the pro-caps definitely need to expand their repertoire a bit, 'cos I for one am getting a bit bored of it.
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
I'm sure the fact that I'm the offspring of Depression era parents is showing, but I think that after the initial shock, people would work together. Most people will find that suvival is easier with a bit of help from your neighbors. Its only the modern age that makes neighbors disposable.
Yes, there is that aspect.

Yuwipi Woman said:
I suspect the Mormons would come out rather well. Their religion requires a years supply of food in each family home. That could be a huge powerbase in that kind of situation.)
A year? We are talking about the future here, not just one year.

The thing is, we can use the opportunity now while we have the ability to develop sustainable energy sources, but once the fossil fuels run out - that's it, we are stuffed.
 
TAE said:
A year? We are talking about the future here, not just one year.

The thing is, we can use the opportunity now while we have the ability to develop sustainable energy sources, but once the fossil fuels run out - that's it, we are stuffed.

If everything went to shit then having a year's supply of food would be a big survival advantage.

I don't think we're stuffed because the fossil fuels run out. People survived long before we had cars. Its just that massive numbers of people would die before the population reached a new equilibrium. Definitely not happy. But, not the end of all things.

And yes, we need to avoid that if at all possible by developing other technologies. And yes, we're wasting valuable time.
 
The early Mormons were an interesting bunch, one of the reasons they were so succesfull as settlers was that they lived communally and were very well organised and disciplined, exactly what would be needed to survive any kind of social collapse.

They once tried to form their own country separate from the US. They were quite willing to defend it.

Yes, they also planned to break away from the US if the Confederacy had proved succesful in the Civil War and found their own republic called Deseret.
 
Fruitloop said:
Why is it every thread devolves into either 'only capitalism is compatible with human nature', or an argument about Cuba, or both? the pro-caps definitely need to expand their repertoire a bit, 'cos I for one am getting a bit bored of it.

Do they...? I think of plenty of threads that don;t have this outcome. Though I suppose it tends to be natural if people persist in thinking that Communism works for a larger group than the magic number...
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
I don't think we're stuffed because the fossil fuels run out. People survived long before we had cars. Its just that massive numbers of people would die before the population reached a new equilibrium. Definitely not happy. But, not the end of all things.

"Massive" numbers are more likely to die from global warming than lack of fossil fuels. Fuels will run out gradually, with them never 100% running out. Oil will just be too expensive to think about using it in cars...
 
Fruitloop said:
We will persist until muppets like you see reason.

Personally, I'm more concerned about the decline in debating skills on U75 than the lack of petrol in the fuure... :rolleyes:
 
Well I mean the 'There Is No Alternative To Capitalism' brigade have been tried in the balance and found wanting on so many occasions that I really can't be bothered to schlep over the same ground one more time.
 
Fruitloop said:
Well I mean the 'There Is No Alternative To Capitalism' brigade have been tried in the balance and found wanting on so many occasions that I really can't be bothered to schlep over the same ground one more time.

Not in their opinion obviously! :D
 
Fruitloop said:
Well I mean the 'There Is No Alternative To Capitalism' brigade have been tried in the balance and found wanting on so many occasions that I really can't be bothered to schlep over the same ground one more time.

Well... I'm almost hesitant now to ask if you have any examples of social systems that are Better Than Capitalism. And whether they are still around...?

Assuming a Mel Gibson-esque Armageddon I'm pretty sure you'll be left to find out, though. :D
 
jæd said:
Personally, I'm more concerned about the decline in debating skills on U75 than the lack of petrol in the fuure... :rolleyes:

A bit rich given that you rarely, if ever, display much of such skills yourself. You're much more likely to post a one-sentence reply with an eye-rolling smilie attached.
 
jæd said:
Well... I'm almost hesitant now to ask if you have any examples of social systems that are Better Than Capitalism. And whether they are still around...?

I can certainly think of a few. Fortunately not all of us have your limited imagination, otherwise we'd all still be serfs and vassals.
 
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