OECD says immigration pushes wages down

[durruti02]

Statistics have been used to show that immigration increases or decreases wages, depending on the source and the point being made at the time.

Marx was correct to point out that the bosses deliberately attempted to pit British workers against Irish, by using Irish workers to lower conditions. He was also right to argue that racist hostility to Irish workers was the problem, not the solution, as that is what permitted the divide and conquer strategy.

In the 1930s US employers pitted immigrant labour against indiginous labour. Where workers united conditions improved for all. Where they fought each other conditions deteriorated for all. This process continues.

Any attempt to focus on Immigrants as the problem will simply lead to racism/hostility towards 'immigrants'. One current focus is Polish immigrants. Such hostility will only play into the hands of those who want to drive wages down.

The 'other factors' are much more important in the scheme than immigration. In the 1930s there was little immigration and declining wages and conditions. In the 1960s there was increasing immigration and improving wages. Recent studies in the US have equated immigration with improved wages.

The real issue is whether workers unite to fight to improve their conditions or not. Racist divisions (whether intended as such, or whether starting from misguided notions about immigratin) are a major obstacle to that.

Why do you think that the tabloids play up the 'threat' from immigration? Is it because they want to see conditions for workers improve? Really??


As for the point about decreasing wages/wage inflation. Wages don't go down in monetary terms except in extremely rare circumstances, just as inflation is never zero, and growth is seldom negative except in the pits of a crash. Average wages are currenltly declining in real terms. Official figures for wage increases are lower than official figures for inflation. In reality the rising cost of living has exceeded wage increases for many for some time now (hence increased personal debt). Strike figures remain extremely low. There's more of an indication as to why wages are declining in real terms than manipulated data about immigration.

i am not giving your post justice grouch as i need to go,

but the point is until the left except that im/migration is a significant part of the mix we will be discredited and will not be able to play the constructive role neccessary in building workers organisation AND confronting racism ..

what do you belive the role of immigration is for the bosses currently?

 

[tbaldwin]

Any attempt to focus on Immigrants as the problem will simply lead to racism/hostility towards 'immigrants'.

But the arguement is about Immigration and Economic Migration....Not Blaming Immigrants.
Its hostility to the Free market and those who defend free market policies on migration.
Its hostility to people like you not to Immigrants.

 

[durruti02]

I used to be an electrician. What's "snide" and "snobbery" about remarking on the high call out rates some charge to "many decent ordinary people" on a lot less than these aristocrats of labour earn?

you said it in a snide way

You keep saying that immigration and migration is having a "major effect" on wages in certain areas. I've yet to see any evidence to back that up. Which areas of the economy are you referring to?

cleaning ( public private sector) construction agriculture

I know the world is not "black and white" (such a inane comment btw).

so why do you still not respond to my accusation you are looking at thi stoo broadly .. the OECD figures of wage growth includes all teh high paid parasites .. look between the lines (eh TB )

I also understand that you can have both growth and unemployment. The last ten years has seen sustained growth, but there is no doubt many people have been left behind. On the other hand, others have grasped opportunities that have come their way and are in a better position than previously.



There will always be unscrupulous employers attempting to reduce their labour costs by underhand means (it's the nature of the beast afterall), but there is no evidence that this is widespread and having a "major effect". Again, the OECD report makes clear that wages are at present not rising as high as expected.

se above .. you are ignoring this really obviously .. you also talk as if it is bad apples rather than a system which suprises me

 

[audiotech]

se above .. you are ignoring this really obviously .. you also talk as if it is bad apples rather than a system which suprises me

I've asked you not to do that crap with fonts and things.

Bad apples? If only. The system is rotten to the core.

 

[audiotech]

you said it in a snide way

Next time I type I'll keep my mouth shut.

cleaning ( public private sector) construction agriculture

Any figures?

so why do you still not respond to my accusation you are looking at thi stoo broadly .. the OECD figures of wage growth includes all teh high paid parasites .. look between the lines (eh TB )

I do look between the lines thanks.

I think that you'll find that the OECD take into account the extremes to get a more realistic picture of rates across the whole economy.

 

[durruti02]

MC5 3 straight questions ..

1) do you deny that imm/igration is having a significant effect on wages for a significant % of w/c people?

2) do you deny that systematically the bosses use imm/igration as a tool

3) what do YOU then think is the function of immigration in 2006, especially with reference to the statements from the EU,OECD,CBI,IOD etc etc about how important im/migration is for neo-liberal/freemarket economics

 

[durruti02]

I've asked you not to do that crap with fonts and things.

Bad apples? If only. The system is rotten to the core.

sorry but what is problem with fonts thing ..

so IF system is rotten to the core do you not think they might use im/migration in the way is suggest??

 

[durruti02]

Next time I type I'll keep my mouth shut.



Any figures?



I do look between the lines thanks.

I think that you'll find that the OECD take into account the extremes to get a more realistic picture of rates across the whole economy.

this last sentance makes no sense mate .. afaik they have averaged out the figures across the economy HENCE not showing immediately the effect at the bottom end

 

[durruti02]

relevent paper from migration watch ..

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefingpapers/economic/immigration_labour_market.asp?search=wages

please note sections 17 and 18 .. reprinted below


"17 The UK has the highest share of low-paid jobs (full-time workers receiving less than two-thirds of median gross earnings) in Europe - an incidence which has been pretty stable over the last two decades at 20 per cent (10). This is likely to be a disincentive to labour participation among the inactive, especially if they are competing for jobs which are unskilled or semi-skilled in nature and may, therefore be caught in the "benefit trap". This seems to have been a particular problem in London since the late 1980s, and increasingly during the 1990s. Whilst the supply of jobs in the low-skill, low pay sub-market has risen, so has the supply of workers driven by international migration. "The result of the [labour] supply increase has been a downward pressure on wages and the maintenance of high levels of unemployment which is associated with the severe deprivation experienced within the capital"(11).

18 One of Britain's top labour economists, Professor Richard Layard of LSE, who helped to design the Government's Welfare to Work programme expressed it in a letter to the Financial Times as follows (12)

"There is a huge amount of evidence that any increase in the number of unskilled workers lowers unskilled wages and increases the unskilled unemployment rate. If we are concerned about fairness, we ought not to ignore these facts. Employers gain from unskilled immigration. But the unskilled do not."

10] OECD Employment Outlook, 2003.
[11] The London Labour Market, GLA Economics.
[12] Financial Times 20 May, 2002.

alsp note how old are the references .. all the evidence is that the figures are far worse now

 

[Groucho]

Migration Watch has an anti-immigration agenda. It is a favourite resource for the BNP. I thought it had been widely discredited. YOu may as well quote the Daily Mail.

 

[durruti02]

Migration Watch has an anti-immigration agenda. It is a favourite resource for the BNP. I thought it had been widely discredited. YOu may as well quote the Daily Mail.

yes of course it is a source of the BNP .. they do not have enough braincells to do the work MW do .. and undoubtedly MW are little englanders .. but ironically (?) it appears to be these people who claim and are able to claim to stand up for the ordinary jo/e , while the left are sidelined

unfortuanately that does not mean it is discredited in terms of what they produce ..

as with all of life please look thru/past the labels and see and agree or disagree what is being said, don't just go 'oh they are discredited' ..

p.s. i suspect both you and MC and I could agree with at least half the BNP manifesto e.g in their 12 point local elections i agree with about 8 of the 12 points e.g. 'no asset selloffs' , and 'action against corruption' and i disagree with the other 4, one of which is the nasty one, 'asylum clampdown'

does this make you and MC and I bnp supportters??

 

[Groucho]

The point I was making is that the source you quote is not some objective compilation of migration data but a vociferous anti-immigration campaign site that compiles and twists data to support a hard line anti-immigration position.

You can't have a campaign against immigration without campaigning against immigrants. You are playing into the hands of the bosses, the Daily Mail and worse.

Working class unity is what is needed to end low pay, not divisions based on whose ancestors were born on this island earliest.

 

[tbaldwin]

The point I was making is that the source you quote is not some objective compilation of migration data but a vociferous anti-immigration campaign site that compiles and twists data to support a hard line anti-immigration position.

You can't have a campaign against immigration without campaigning against immigrants. You are playing into the hands of the bosses, the Daily Mail and worse.

Working class unity is what is needed to end low pay, not divisions based on whose ancestors were born on this island earliest.

Durruti doesnt have a campaign against Immigration though does he..He just argues against Free Marketers like you.
DM is a scum paper. And Migration watch are hardly progressives but neither D or any of the growing number of Socialists arguing against free market policies are arguing that they have all the answers. But they do have some questions that Socialists need to answer....
And supporting free market policies that lead to poorer countries losing the workers they most need is a totally shameful thing for any self proffesed socialist to do.

 

[Groucho]

Durruti doesnt have a campaign against Immigration though does he..He just argues against Free Marketers like you.
DM is a scum paper. And Migration watch are hardly progressives but neither D or any of the growing number of Socialists arguing against free market policies are arguing that they have all the answers. But they do have some questions that Socialists need to answer....
And supporting free market policies that lead to poorer countries losing the workers they most need is a totally shameful thing for any self proffesed socialist to do.

But the ONLY aspect of the 'free market' so-called socialists like you seem to oppose is that which permits workers to cross borders seeking jobs. It is not the free market you are opposing but the workers.

To improve pay and conditions workers have to unite and to be prepared to take strike action in unity to force bosses to pay up. You would have workers fighting workers over the question of who 'deserves' the right to work on these shores based on parentage. You would not be improving conditions, you would be dividing workers and allowing the bosses to divide and rule. That is the agenda of the Daily Mail and of Migration Watch.

 

[tbaldwin]

But the ONLY aspect of the 'free market' so-called socialists like you seem to oppose is that which permits workers to cross borders seeking jobs. It is not the free market you are opposing but the workers.

.

Groucho sorry but you must know that is utter utter utter ####.
I am against the free market in health and education...Im against the privatisation of transport and the utilities...
Why cant you just try and have an honest arguement about your support for free market policies on migration?

 

[tbaldwin]

To improve pay and conditions workers have to unite and to be prepared to take strike action in unity to force bosses to pay up. You would have workers fighting workers over the question of who 'deserves' the right to work on these shores based on parentage. You would not be improving conditions, you would be dividing workers and allowing the bosses to divide and rule. That is the agenda of the Daily Mail and of Migration Watch.

Groucho do you think of yourself as a National Socialist or an Internationalist?

What effect do you think Migration has Internationally?

 

[cockneyrebel]

Durutti, asked this on the other thread:

From your point of view immigration is bad. So what are your solutions? What kind of immigration controls would you put in place? Because unless you're prepared to advocate something practical in becomes meaningless.

We'd all support strong trade union rights, a high minimum wage, good labour laws etc but what are you saying, in terms of specifics, about immigration?

Groucho:

In the 1930s US employers pitted immigrant labour against indiginous labour. Where workers united conditions improved for all. Where they fought each other conditions deteriorated for all. This process continues.

This is where I disagree with SWP analysis. While the above may be true in many cases, there is no denying that the root of racism is a material one. The fight of white workers for material benefits over black and Asian workers i.e. white workers benefiting from racism, the SWP always seems to deny this can happen. Anyway, that aside I thought it was a very good post.

Out of interest has anyone any got any idea what happened to the conditions of the white (non-Jewish) German working class in the period 1933-1940? What happened to wages and working conditions?

Average wages are currenltly declining in real terms. Official figures for wage increases are lower than official figures for inflation. In reality the rising cost of living has exceeded wage increases for many for some time now (hence increased personal debt).

The same has happened in the US for years. The thing that has offset this is the decreasing costs of consumer goods, which is linked into the booming world economy over the last 5/6 years.

 

[treelover]

Its incredible, the SWP posters on here seem to be using neo-liberal/freemarket arguments to back up their feeble case, strange times we are living in...

 

[audiotech]

MC5 3 straight questions ..

1) do you deny that imm/igration is having a significant effect on wages for a significant % of w/c people?

2) do you deny that systematically the bosses use imm/igration as a tool

3) what do YOU then think is the function of immigration in 2006, especially with reference to the statements from the EU,OECD,CBI,IOD etc etc about how important im/migration is for neo-liberal/freemarket economics

1) No, I do not accept that immigration is having a significant effect on wage levels, but I do accept that some wage levels are being affected in certain areas of the economy. Mainly the black economy as it happens.

2) Yes, I do accept that employers can use immigration as a tool, although I doubt that it is systematic at present.

3) The general consensus is that the function of immigration in 2006 is to fill skill gaps in the UK economy.

The general turn of the UK economy today and for the foreseeable future is to find it's niche in the world market by developing a highly technical, highly skilled workforce based on information. Wage levels are and will reflect that level of skill required.

 

[audiotech]

sorry but what is problem with fonts thing ..

so IF system is rotten to the core do you not think they might use im/migration in the way is suggest??

It's difficult to reply to your posts.

Eh?

 

[audiotech]

Its incredible, the SWP posters on here seem to be using neo-liberal/freemarket arguments to back up their feeble case, strange times we are living in...

I note there is one SWP member on this thread (Groucho) I haven't noticed any neo-liberal/freemarket arguments form his pen ever.

However, I notice that you're still coming out with the usual tripe.

 

[tbaldwin]

I note there is one SWP member on this thread (Groucho) I haven't noticed any neo-liberal/freemarket arguments form his pen ever.

He supports free market policies on migration....

 

[audiotech]

He supports free market policies on migration....

I'll let Groucho answer that one.

Edit: I see he has on another thred.

 

[tbaldwin]

I'll let Groucho answer that one.

Edit: I see he has on another thred.

Yeah hes said he does....Nothing can be done.....Its just the natural way of things etc etc etc you know really strong arguements for his brand of Socialism..........

 

[Groucho]

Yeah hes said he does....Nothing can be done.....Its just the natural way of things etc etc etc you know really strong arguements for his brand of Socialism..........

I'm not the one who supports Blair on the grounds that capitalism is the 'natural way if things' or the best that we've got and can't be opposed - that is your argument. I have never argued that 'nothing can be done'. What I have argued is that attacks on immigration are part of the problem not the solution.

 

[tbaldwin]

I'm not the one who supports Blair on the grounds that capitalism is the 'natural way if things' or the best that we've got and can't be opposed - that is your argument. I have never argued that 'nothing can be done'. What I have argued is that attacks on immigration are part of the problem not the solution.

1 Where have i said that "capitalism is the natural way of things"?? Please try and debate honestly...

I would love to see a Socialist alternative to all you weak elitist liberals including Blair but just point out there isnt one.

Arguing against free market policies on migration is part of being a Socialist.

 

[Groucho]

1 Where have i said that "capitalism is the natural way of things"?? Please try and debate honestly...

I would love to see a Socialist alternative to all you weak elitist liberals including Blair but just point out there isnt one.

Arguing against free market policies on migration is part of being a Socialist.

Would that be a brand of 'Socialism' that puts Nation before class by any chance?

 

[tbaldwin]

Would that be a brand of 'Socialism' that puts Nation before class by any chance?

No my arguements are primarily Internationalist...Yours are primarilyNationalist.. Check out who it is who continuosly talks about the International consequences.

 

[tbaldwin]

What I have argued is that attacks on immigration are part of the problem not the solution.

"attacks on immigration" its like you will do anything to defend your free market views.Including hinting drakly that anyone who opposes those free market views must be a closet racist etc..
It's not a great arguement is it.The vast majority of people oppose your views including the vast majority of Black and Asian people in this country.

 

[In Bloom]

As opposed to your innuendo laden 'free market' jibes?

The reality of the situation is that immigration has always existed and will always exist, you can't get rid of it. The laws you propose would only worsen the situation for immigrants, thereby making them an easier target for dodgy gangmasters and people traffickers, as well as assisting the bosses in creating a pool of flexible labour that they can exploit at will.

Short of a ten foot wall across the entire length of the British coast, there is fuck all you can do to prevent immigrants getting in.