More dishonesty, where did he say he read the book?
Obama would never become Prime Minister of Britain because of Racism
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More dishonesty, where did he say he read the book?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This first part is undoubtedly true, but it is also the story of immigrants everywhere regardless of their race.
The second part is the saddest aspect of racism in Britain, imo. Again, it is a universal experience for the children of immigrants to expect more from society than their parents. But the children of black immigrants did not achieve what a second generation might expect to achieve due to racism in the wider society. I partially blame Thatcher for this. She co-opted many of the NF's anti-immigrant policies from 1979 onwards, just at the time that the first massed ranks of second-generation black British were coming of age. It could easily have been very different, I think.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'm not just posting for the benefit of soulfish.
I see a lot of common ground here. I'm more interested in exploring that.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
So why the differentials between the Asian and black communities in terms of success? While the poorest immigrant communities are from Asian Minor (Bangladeshis), there is a huge Indian and Pakistani middle class in the UK, and in areas where there are large Asian communities local politics at least is representative. Vocationally and educationally Asians perform better than than white m/c peers in some areas, and there is some data starting to suggest that more recent immigrants from Central and Southern Africa are doing better than those born in the UK. Sorry, but that's not all down to racism.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well, i've had the full soulfish experience before, so i'm sceptical that any joint exploration can take place without him attempting the shameless tricks he's tried here.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Do you have any answers to these questions?
Do you think this bit
'the children of black immigrants did not achieve what a second generation might expect to achieve due to racism in the wider society'
is true, partially true or not true at all?
The alien wedge has entered here because Britain was once out there, being great in the world. That basic fact of global history is undeniable. And yet, its grudging recognition now provides a stimulus for further forms of hostility rooted in the realisation that, even if they are not post–colonials, today’s unwanted settlers carry all the ambivalence of that vanished empire with them. Held hostage by the idea that they too are immigrants, they inadvertently project deep and dangerous discomfort into the unhappy consciousness of their fearful and anxious hosts and neighbours. Indeed, the incomers may be unwanted and feared precisely because they are the unwitting triggers for the pain produced by memories of that vanished imperial and colonial past
http://www.opendemocracy.net/arts-multiculturalism/article_2035.jsp
Full article from Paul Gilroy link above.
Thanks for that and Praise be to babyjesus....
And butchersapron I really think you to get out more if you think I'm doing tricks. I'm stating an opinion just as you are. But however it's sad that you cant debate without resorting to cat calls.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/arts-multiculturalism/article_2035.jsp
Full article from Paul Gilroy link above.
Thanks for that and Praise be to babyjesus....
And butchersapron I really think you to get out more if you think I'm doing tricks. I'm stating an opinion just as you are. But however it's sad that you cant debate without resorting to cat calls.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
If you think being an 'assertive black male' involves lying and making up quotes and positions then carry on, if you think offering opinions involves lying about what other people have said then again, carry the fuck on.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This bit seems a bit of a leap. Baroness Amos is currently a member of the Labour cabinet. Maybe the fact that she is in the House of Lords rather than the Commons backs up Philips's claims about barriers to MP selection, but given the number of black candidates lined up for potentially winnable seats in the next election, again I see this changing.
I think your attitude generally is in line with that of Stuart Hall in the 1970s. How far do you think we've come since the 1970s?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Did I say I'd read the book?
Nope, I specifically stated that I'd "...spent the last 25 minutes checking the indexes to "The Black Atlantic", "The Empire Strikes Back" and "There Ain't No Black...", as well as thumbing through and speed-reading some passages...".
I'm getting a little bit tired of your misrepresentations.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Four.
Or doesn't Vaz count?
Having met him several times I'd disagree with Mandy being a "lovely bloke", but apart from Ken Livingstone I can't think of another politician more convincingly and competently on top of his brief, no matter what you think of him. There is no way you're going to get the better of him in an argument.
Back at Soulfish, having lived and worked in the US, France and Germany, if you think Britain, for all its faults, is more racist than them, you are dreaming. I'm sure there are less racist countries in the world, but those three aren't them.
Vaz was Leicester East or South, no?
Isn't he south asian rather than black?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Identity politics.
Back when Vaz, Abbot, Boateng and Grant won their seats, BMEs often self-described as "Black". I remember Darcus Howe holding forth about "our 4 black MPs". Even now that can still be the case ("Southall Black Sisters", which is multi-ethnic, being an example).
Nowadays we have the weaselly "BME", at least partly because the solidarity between the Afro-Caribbean and South Asian communities isn't as strong as it was, at least partially due to the class aspirations of some south Asians causing (IMHO) a rightward shift in their politics.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Still is MP for Leicester East. He's a good constituency MP by all accounts, too.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
As far as the US is concerned, I reckon it depends where in the US you're talking about.
France and Germany, though, well...
France has a long and filthy history of treating immigrants and "aliens" like shit, and still has a horrific record insofar as French citizens of north African descent are concerned.
Germany's treatment of their Turkish gastarbeiters is still a scandal, with third-generation immigrants still being refused citizenship for the flimsiest of reasons.
Is Britain racist? Of course it is.
Are people in Britain prejudiced? Yep, every single one of us, including soulfish. Irrational prejudice is part of the human condition. We can't eradicate it, the best we can do is to keep our prejudices contained so that they don't affect other people.
Yep, fair enough. I stand amended.
France and Germany we agree on, though? Funnily enough, apart from the Turkish minority, which is treated like crap, I find Germany amazingly white/monocultural. It's got massive Russian/Polish immigration, but you barely see a black, Asian or oriental face in Berlin, for example.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Yep, fair enough. I stand amended.
France and Germany we agree on, though? Funnily enough, apart from the Turkish minority, which is treated like crap, I find Germany amazingly white/monocultural. It's got massive Russian/Polish immigration, but you barely see a black, Asian or oriental face in Berlin, for example.
I saw quite a few of the above when I was there last month, but then we were staying in Moabit, which is a bit more "down at heel" than the bits most tourists stay in.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I don't quite agree. Prejudices are normally the result of incomplete information. As such, they can be an effective heuristic by which to make decisions. In that sense, I see them as similar to superstitions.
The best we can do, I think, is to destroy our prejudices through increasing our information.
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