ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
The BBC may have edited their page since you quoted it. The "Jewish lobby" wording is pretty offensive; it's not in their report now.
Obama pledges support for Israel
- Thread starter Kid_Eternity
- Start date
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Please read my post numbered 25.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Right, so you're saying I knew the change had been made yet chose to not update on purpose? It couldn't be that I started creating the post, had other things to do then came back to it to hit submit and hadn't checked for any changes in the story?
Many thanks for the benifit of the doubt and insinuations that I'm prejudiced towards Jewish people...
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Right, so you're saying I knew the change had been made yet chose to not update on purpose? It couldn't be that I started creating the post, had other things to do then came back to it to hit submit and hadn't checked for any changes in the story?
Many thanks for the benifit of the doubt and insinuations that I'm prejudiced towards Jewish people...
No. I am saying nothing of the sort, but still your OP remains the same despite my having informed you of the mistaken attribution.
I see also that it was GMT, so you are actually one hour ahead in UK, making the BBC site last update some 40 minutes AFTER your OP.
I ask you again - please change it - others have also used the mistaken term 'Jewish Lobby' and I advise you all to alter your posts.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Proof elsewhere that the BBC wording had 'Jewish Lobby':
Please change your OP - it will only lead others to use this incorrect term regarding AIPAC, and your whole discourse will be targetted as 'prejudiced'.
Please change your OP - it will only lead others to use this incorrect term regarding AIPAC, and your whole discourse will be targetted as 'prejudiced'.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Kid Eternity: I'll thank you not to call me an idiot who has called you a racist - I have done no such thing.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Right, so you're saying I knew the change had been made yet chose to not update on purpose? It couldn't be that I started creating the post, had other things to do then came back to it to hit submit and hadn't checked for any changes in the story?
Many thanks for the benifit of the doubt and insinuations that I'm prejudiced towards Jewish people...
You meant prejudiced against Jewish people, I think. But it's nice if you're prejudiced towards Jewish people, positive discrimination isn't that called? LOL.
No-one is calling you a racist or anti-semite for cut-&-paste from the BBC website. Chill.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Obama tailored his speech to suit the target audience, as any fule kno
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Ok ok but it wasn't entirely clear. Also as you may note I haven't posted too much on this thread so haven't been following it quite as closely as you'd like...
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Can't disagree with any of this, apart from Likud are not coming back to power due to their courting of militant American Christian Zionists - it is their undoing. Fat-cat Bibi will only continue the enslavement of Israelis to America's pitbull-mentality both in military and industrial arena. Barak is weaker than a broken Lulav.
I am very, very sad that it has come to outright bribery on he part of Yanks to win our minds and when I return home I will continue working to end US Finanacial AID to our country. We do not need it, have not needed it since the first year they gave it as our economy was self sufficient by 1960. In fact we had Economic Takeoff almost 18 years before our Independance so the idea that we need Uncle Sam helping us is absolute nonsense. It degardes usas a People and a Nation and far too often steers not only our Foreign Policy but more importantly and devastatingly, our Domestic Policy.
I do have to add though, I wonder what that blowhard MP Goerge Galloway is whistling through his blowhole right about now. He was so convinced that Obama would usher in a new beginning for , as he put it, his "Arab brothers inshallah (sic - his words, not mine)."
I do have to add though, I wonder what that blowhard MP Goerge Galloway is whistling through his blowhole right about now. He was so convinced that Obama would usher in a new beginning for , as he put it, his "Arab brothers inshallah (sic - his words, not mine)."
Tangent: Actually you are correct about AIPAC wrking towards its own platform and not that of the democratically elected government of Israel. I remember well just after Arik fell ill and Olmert geared up for his first American a$% kissing, there was a huge rift between what AIPAC was lobbying for and what the Kadima Govt. was aiming for. Our Ambassador in Washington was quite up in arms trying to get the point across about the need in terms of demographics for Arik's plan of Uinlateral Disengagement as it was called then, now known popularly as Withdrawal (sic). AIPAC almost steered Israel's whole new direction into the ground since the Olmert Govt. is afraid to take a single step without first checking with DC to make sure it is ok.
However, most of AIPAC is made up of Jews, albeit of the Weekly Jewish Press Demographic (as it is popularly known in America, meaning Republican voting and going against the stereotypical Liberal slant of American Jewry). There ARe some christains in the membeship but mostare mrely allied with the organisation via their own Lobbying and/or Partisan Interest Groups.
However, most of AIPAC is made up of Jews, albeit of the Weekly Jewish Press Demographic (as it is popularly known in America, meaning Republican voting and going against the stereotypical Liberal slant of American Jewry). There ARe some christains in the membeship but mostare mrely allied with the organisation via their own Lobbying and/or Partisan Interest Groups.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Geo-politics. Think "beachhead" (not the only one by any means, though), not militarily, but economically and culturally.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
I agree that Israel doesn't need the aid, but I don't think the Occupation could continue without it. I'm pretty sure the Israeli government stated a few years ago that it could not become self-sufficient in arms - and it's hard to see how a country of 7 million people could sustain the world's 4th largest military without a little bit of help from outside.
because there are many American Jews in positions of power/wealth/influence, etc...trust me, you don't want to piss them off.
CRI
Registered Chooser
A big chunk of political and financial support for the State of Israel comes from fundamentalist Christians. It's something to do with the prophecies of Revelations - there has to be a re-establishment of "Israel" for the messiah return. They translate this to support for the state of Israel and of course will do anything possible to bring the "second coming" nearer.
You get rock solid support for the state of Israel from rural working class communities (like where I come from in the Mid West) although you'll find congregations there that are full of "casual anti-semites," with little positive regard for Jewish people as people (except where perhaps they can be converted!)
So, it's not just down to American Jews in positions of power and influence. It's certainly worth noting that "American Jews" are hardly a homogenous group, not all are vehemently "pro-Israel" or Zionist and not all terribly powerful or influencial in the political arena. ;
Oh, and sadly, it would be political suicide for any US presidential candidate to make any fundamental changes to policy regarding Israel, whatever they might like to do or whatever they believe to be right in the longer term. Just taking the Jimmy Carter line and pushing for peace talks between Israel and neighbours was considered too far in many quarters, but I'm guessing that sort of tactic would be the most likely one for making some difference.
You get rock solid support for the state of Israel from rural working class communities (like where I come from in the Mid West) although you'll find congregations there that are full of "casual anti-semites," with little positive regard for Jewish people as people (except where perhaps they can be converted!)
So, it's not just down to American Jews in positions of power and influence. It's certainly worth noting that "American Jews" are hardly a homogenous group, not all are vehemently "pro-Israel" or Zionist and not all terribly powerful or influencial in the political arena. ;
Oh, and sadly, it would be political suicide for any US presidential candidate to make any fundamental changes to policy regarding Israel, whatever they might like to do or whatever they believe to be right in the longer term. Just taking the Jimmy Carter line and pushing for peace talks between Israel and neighbours was considered too far in many quarters, but I'm guessing that sort of tactic would be the most likely one for making some difference.
YMU: I am glad that we agree that Israel does NOT need the AID but I do disgree with your contention that to so called "Occupation" would not continue without it."
First, most are unaware and so I do not blame you, but the vast bulk of Economic AID comes with very specific strings attached to it as to how and where it can be spent and for the last several years almost all AID has been earmarked for non"Territorial" usage.
Even with that stipulation, it is highly improbable that any of those dollars would be used in this sense UNLESS it was being used for specific pro-Arab programs.
I have long spoken about the ruling Party Kadima's Platform. The Party's very existence revolves around it's founder and arhitect's Ariel "Arik" Sharon's vison for the near future of the region. First trying to gain support among is own co-Party mewmbers in Likud, the Bloc he led before breaking off into the Kadima Faction, and then the subsequent Kadima Party, Sharon was able to find only a few among his fellow Likud members so that he actually broke off of Likud, lobbied other politicos from both the so called left AND the so called right - and thus Kadima was born.
Central to the both the Original and current Platform is the idea that Israel will fully cede all of Gaza and up to 96% of the so called "West Bank."
As I am sure you know, we did leave Gaza entirely in September 2005 and in that same period abandoned 4 small Jewish Districts on the "West Bank."
The plan called for the rest of the "WB" to follow suit within 15 to 18 months. Sadly though, the following summer HAMAS recognising that such a similar ceding of the so called "West Bank" would translate into negation of any power they had managed to retain inview of their very quikly dissipating powerbase in both so called "Territories."
So HAMAS lauchned a successful coup, and even before Israel's last veichle has left Gazan territory and closed the gate in the dseparation/border fence wasas being assaulted by not one but 2 actual Suicide Attasck attempts,PRG, Qassam, and mortar shell salvos aims in the direction of the withdrawaing Jews...whose convoys were primarily made up of Israeli civilians, i.e. not valid military targets (as if that would mae a bit of legal or moral difference considering the automatic illegality attached to HAMAS for itsmere existence in lieu of BOTH PA AND International Laws.
Israel felt it best to not lock itself into its own 18 month deadline fopr the same type of move with the remaining areas of the so called "West Bank" until thungs calmed down enough as to where the "Palestinian" powerbase was firmly ensconced and able to provide a representative govt. able to continue in both spirit and letter of the ongoing "Territorial; Negotians."
Without boring alot of people I will speed up things a bit and offer that in spite of Abbas' seemily scizophrenic qualities with regard to his week long lover fest with all HAMAS entitites, Israel still views him as a viable partner in negotiations and that they are fast approaching the very critical stages of discusion with one of the so called "Finnal Status Questions" already under discussion . Ergo, there IS reason to be happy and hopeful about the state of things.
I do believe, although I have the data filed and do not feel like digging it ot be quite honest, that a good portion of the AID now being recieved, and I suspect a reasonable amount of Obama's bribe will be earmarker for things jointly effecting both Israeli AND "Palestine."
For example, many are not aware that under the Quartet's Mid-East envoy, former PM Tony Blair some amazing prgress has happened. Most are probably aware with Blair's First Official Project. "Ease of Movement within the 'West Bank'" and its very succesful conclusion as the first step in that vein.
However others might not be even nearly as knowledgeable about how Blair convinced Israeli negotiators to help arm and train PA Polocemen who will, on a test by test basis, be deployedin the 2 other (of 3) "WB" Districts that are not under their ultimate control (There are 3 Districts, A, B, and C. C is the largest and entirely controlled by Israel, B by Israel in terms of Security related issues, and A, entirely within control of the PA).
Blair has also been instrumental in the creation of the PA Army that us being armed by Israel but trained by US Military Contractors under the ultimate supervision of US Army Brass. To date 2 battalions numbering 300 men each have been deployed within the "WB" and a new class has left for Jordan for their training.
Israel might have also been able to use of that US money in terms of Infrastructual problems in the "WB" as oin the turning over a full IDF base in the "WB" just oputside of Jerusalem so that the PA might have the basis for an envisoned Model City...unlike what HAMAS did in Gaza with the literally hundredss of US billions in destructions just for spite.
"Self sufficient in arms.": In truth, the issue was disaprity in advancement. Israel, during the Cold War was unable to match its Arab enemies who were being given huge amounts of Soviet and other Eastern Bloc armamanets. When we got out first Arms deal from DC it was in the JFK years... but nothing really substantially took place until hours before the 67 War thanks to LBJ. By the time we were engaged in Operation Peace for Galilee in 1982, AKA First Lebanon War, we were exporting more arms built by us then importing arms from any other outside source, or even all importing points combined with one another.
We have been fully sufficient in each and every way, thanks to HaShem.
How could such a tiny nation sustain the world's 4th largest army.": Pretty simple really. Our men and women doing their mandatory Govt. Service at (usually) 18 to 21 only geet paid with a phone card and a token 60 US dollar payout. That is on the first dayy of indiction. After that they get minimal travel allowances but are encouraged to hitchhike . While I will not sound like a Propaganda Officer and tell you all cherish their service, I can honestly say that in the equivalent of Junior High School people began dreaming of which units they will apply for. By HS, they are routed along tracks and war heroes are just as popular as sports heroes. Our society is highly militarised and it is viewed from birth so that is completely natural.
You have Peaceniks who refuse to serve due to ideological reasons and on the other hand you have hardcore Charedim who refuse to even recognise the State's existence until the Messisah reveals himself b ut even this is changing with more Charedi Inductees every year. The vast majority of Israeli youth with patriotic fervor and compete heartily for the Eilte Units.
Again, as for help for outside, I have already explained that to you but maybe examing sources like Janes, Dover, and various military minded think tanks you can examine the hard date.
First, most are unaware and so I do not blame you, but the vast bulk of Economic AID comes with very specific strings attached to it as to how and where it can be spent and for the last several years almost all AID has been earmarked for non"Territorial" usage.
Even with that stipulation, it is highly improbable that any of those dollars would be used in this sense UNLESS it was being used for specific pro-Arab programs.
I have long spoken about the ruling Party Kadima's Platform. The Party's very existence revolves around it's founder and arhitect's Ariel "Arik" Sharon's vison for the near future of the region. First trying to gain support among is own co-Party mewmbers in Likud, the Bloc he led before breaking off into the Kadima Faction, and then the subsequent Kadima Party, Sharon was able to find only a few among his fellow Likud members so that he actually broke off of Likud, lobbied other politicos from both the so called left AND the so called right - and thus Kadima was born.
Central to the both the Original and current Platform is the idea that Israel will fully cede all of Gaza and up to 96% of the so called "West Bank."
As I am sure you know, we did leave Gaza entirely in September 2005 and in that same period abandoned 4 small Jewish Districts on the "West Bank."
The plan called for the rest of the "WB" to follow suit within 15 to 18 months. Sadly though, the following summer HAMAS recognising that such a similar ceding of the so called "West Bank" would translate into negation of any power they had managed to retain inview of their very quikly dissipating powerbase in both so called "Territories."
So HAMAS lauchned a successful coup, and even before Israel's last veichle has left Gazan territory and closed the gate in the dseparation/border fence wasas being assaulted by not one but 2 actual Suicide Attasck attempts,PRG, Qassam, and mortar shell salvos aims in the direction of the withdrawaing Jews...whose convoys were primarily made up of Israeli civilians, i.e. not valid military targets (as if that would mae a bit of legal or moral difference considering the automatic illegality attached to HAMAS for itsmere existence in lieu of BOTH PA AND International Laws.
Israel felt it best to not lock itself into its own 18 month deadline fopr the same type of move with the remaining areas of the so called "West Bank" until thungs calmed down enough as to where the "Palestinian" powerbase was firmly ensconced and able to provide a representative govt. able to continue in both spirit and letter of the ongoing "Territorial; Negotians."
Without boring alot of people I will speed up things a bit and offer that in spite of Abbas' seemily scizophrenic qualities with regard to his week long lover fest with all HAMAS entitites, Israel still views him as a viable partner in negotiations and that they are fast approaching the very critical stages of discusion with one of the so called "Finnal Status Questions" already under discussion . Ergo, there IS reason to be happy and hopeful about the state of things.
I do believe, although I have the data filed and do not feel like digging it ot be quite honest, that a good portion of the AID now being recieved, and I suspect a reasonable amount of Obama's bribe will be earmarker for things jointly effecting both Israeli AND "Palestine."
For example, many are not aware that under the Quartet's Mid-East envoy, former PM Tony Blair some amazing prgress has happened. Most are probably aware with Blair's First Official Project. "Ease of Movement within the 'West Bank'" and its very succesful conclusion as the first step in that vein.
However others might not be even nearly as knowledgeable about how Blair convinced Israeli negotiators to help arm and train PA Polocemen who will, on a test by test basis, be deployedin the 2 other (of 3) "WB" Districts that are not under their ultimate control (There are 3 Districts, A, B, and C. C is the largest and entirely controlled by Israel, B by Israel in terms of Security related issues, and A, entirely within control of the PA).
Blair has also been instrumental in the creation of the PA Army that us being armed by Israel but trained by US Military Contractors under the ultimate supervision of US Army Brass. To date 2 battalions numbering 300 men each have been deployed within the "WB" and a new class has left for Jordan for their training.
Israel might have also been able to use of that US money in terms of Infrastructual problems in the "WB" as oin the turning over a full IDF base in the "WB" just oputside of Jerusalem so that the PA might have the basis for an envisoned Model City...unlike what HAMAS did in Gaza with the literally hundredss of US billions in destructions just for spite.
"Self sufficient in arms.": In truth, the issue was disaprity in advancement. Israel, during the Cold War was unable to match its Arab enemies who were being given huge amounts of Soviet and other Eastern Bloc armamanets. When we got out first Arms deal from DC it was in the JFK years... but nothing really substantially took place until hours before the 67 War thanks to LBJ. By the time we were engaged in Operation Peace for Galilee in 1982, AKA First Lebanon War, we were exporting more arms built by us then importing arms from any other outside source, or even all importing points combined with one another.
We have been fully sufficient in each and every way, thanks to HaShem.
How could such a tiny nation sustain the world's 4th largest army.": Pretty simple really. Our men and women doing their mandatory Govt. Service at (usually) 18 to 21 only geet paid with a phone card and a token 60 US dollar payout. That is on the first dayy of indiction. After that they get minimal travel allowances but are encouraged to hitchhike . While I will not sound like a Propaganda Officer and tell you all cherish their service, I can honestly say that in the equivalent of Junior High School people began dreaming of which units they will apply for. By HS, they are routed along tracks and war heroes are just as popular as sports heroes. Our society is highly militarised and it is viewed from birth so that is completely natural.
You have Peaceniks who refuse to serve due to ideological reasons and on the other hand you have hardcore Charedim who refuse to even recognise the State's existence until the Messisah reveals himself b ut even this is changing with more Charedi Inductees every year. The vast majority of Israeli youth with patriotic fervor and compete heartily for the Eilte Units.
Again, as for help for outside, I have already explained that to you but maybe examing sources like Janes, Dover, and various military minded think tanks you can examine the hard date.
Detroit City: Suggesting that "powerful Jews control America and you do now want to piss them off (sic)" is about a verbatim Neo-Naxi rant. ZOG ...Tell me, do you think the US Govt. os occupied by Zioinists? I have no problems conversing with such people if in fact that is your slant, I just like as much honesty as possible in discussion.
CRI: ACtually I agree with everything you posted save one possible minor difference. Israel ALREADY negotiates with many groups. Carter, the senile fool, SUGGESTED that Israel negotiate with HAMAS. That is unacceptable and a pisspoor piece of advice from a foreigner who has hardly spent more than 2 months total in the region in his entire life and aside from his few days in Cario this year, noe after 1979.
He obviously did not even read the groups' Charter because if he did, there is a worse and more nefarious scenario and dynamic at play. I would rather write him off as a demented folol who knows his political legacy is next to nothing and in this sense is trying to leave soemthing Earth shattering and righteous. The problem of course is, before your plave even arrives in Egypt for your visa you are saying that the Israelis are "Committing the worst Human Right Violations of our era" when South Africans arer butchering brother Africans simply because they are in competition for jobs and age onld steretypical taunts and bias....or Chenya practically exterminated culturally by Putin,et al, and a hundre of other cases curtrently on the front burners.
Then, once you have landed and your motorcade is wrolling through the Rafah Crossing, into Gaza you remark to your colleagues that this proves how monstrous Israeli policy is/ Unlike "every other country" Tutu has visited, gads of children puld chase the motorcase as he and confederates would toss candy to the gleeful children. This time, as the motorcase crept to central Gaza City for immedate negotiations on what he would be permitted to investigate (he was there as part of the farciacal UN Human Rights Team) (revamped of course -whose first year was devoted merely to Israeli Human Rights Violations although Israel has been rankled regionally as Number I in this area in tyerms of less violations than all other Middle -Eastern nations, Israel was a number one NON-violator in this are.) and all His Emminence could think to reply was, no children are chasing me for candy.
Hmmm...could it be that they are sick and jaded of all these meaningless convoys and just want a better lifestyle? If you see luxury Car convoys almost daily you certainly noit going to think anything out of the offer. Just goes to show Tut's detachment with reality as well as anti-Israeli (and I have stated in the Middle-East Forum, his hatred of Jews as well).
He obviously did not even read the groups' Charter because if he did, there is a worse and more nefarious scenario and dynamic at play. I would rather write him off as a demented folol who knows his political legacy is next to nothing and in this sense is trying to leave soemthing Earth shattering and righteous. The problem of course is, before your plave even arrives in Egypt for your visa you are saying that the Israelis are "Committing the worst Human Right Violations of our era" when South Africans arer butchering brother Africans simply because they are in competition for jobs and age onld steretypical taunts and bias....or Chenya practically exterminated culturally by Putin,et al, and a hundre of other cases curtrently on the front burners.
Then, once you have landed and your motorcade is wrolling through the Rafah Crossing, into Gaza you remark to your colleagues that this proves how monstrous Israeli policy is/ Unlike "every other country" Tutu has visited, gads of children puld chase the motorcase as he and confederates would toss candy to the gleeful children. This time, as the motorcase crept to central Gaza City for immedate negotiations on what he would be permitted to investigate (he was there as part of the farciacal UN Human Rights Team) (revamped of course -whose first year was devoted merely to Israeli Human Rights Violations although Israel has been rankled regionally as Number I in this area in tyerms of less violations than all other Middle -Eastern nations, Israel was a number one NON-violator in this are.) and all His Emminence could think to reply was, no children are chasing me for candy.
Hmmm...could it be that they are sick and jaded of all these meaningless convoys and just want a better lifestyle? If you see luxury Car convoys almost daily you certainly noit going to think anything out of the offer. Just goes to show Tut's detachment with reality as well as anti-Israeli (and I have stated in the Middle-East Forum, his hatred of Jews as well).
No, Israel neither helped set them up NOR fund them. It DID allow them to flourish without sarresting or neutralising them and that has nothing in relation to now negotiating with them. Nigel, have you ever read the HAMAS Charter?
If not, in several places it expresses its desire to kill EVERY JEW on Earth, not Israeli, Not Zionist, but every Jew. They are genocidal maniacs. They have been launching rockets and mortars ar us every day since we ceded Gaza to them in 2005. While Carter was in Egypt,etc., 4 Israelis were killed by these shells. This is why we should not be negotiating with them.
What really happened is this: The groups official birthdate is in 1987 but it actually dates to the 1930s and a Gazan branch of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. With the rest of the Brotherhood they were horribly repressed by each successive Egyptian Govt. until in 1967 Egypt refused to take Gaza back and we were left with its administration. At this point HAMAS began to branch away from Brotherhood bylaws and develop its own distinctive ideology and operational system.
Gaza is still and always was innundated with Israeli Intel and we always watched them in parallel fashion as they developed their distinctive views. They got into the habit of going into the Casbah and handing out handbills during Jummah and then pasting large posters onto walls in the Casbah and in smaller Casbahs and Souks all over the Strip.
The then began copying the methods of the Shia Hezbollah in operating a health and welfare net to take care of the majority who are the downtrodden of the area and whom tradional Arab leadership rarely even listened to let alone helped.
Anyone trying to understand our part of the world needs to realise that all societies are not the same. Arab society for example is vertical, not horizontal. IT has well established social hierarchies and HAMAS jumped over this well entrenched system and said to the very poor and typically disenfranchised, you may find an ear to listen and succor for what ails you and in this way they managed to indoctrinate quite alot of their neighbours.
Israeli Intel let HAMAS develop in the early days because we neded a way to offset the Marxist nonsense that was oh so prevalent back then and by the time we realised what we had in our laps it was too late. They were never Israeli clients ir assets though and to think so would be a waste of time. They were merely allowed to exist.
As to why we cannot now talk to them, we never could. We let them do their thing but since they took Gaza by coup (they already were its elected rulers but took over the entire govermeny in their coup, it would like a Democrat winning the American Presidency but still dealing with a multi party House and Senate...but then having Democratic footsoldiers take over all arms of the govt.
The following explains the Israeli Govt. positioin at the moment and the very near future.
If you come to an entity and say, "Look, everyone known HAMAS says you do not even exist but they are willing, in spite of their genocidal program for youe enrtire People worldwide, to talk with you about a limited ceasefire for a set number of months (please look up the defiinition of 3 Arabic words I)Ta'hadeeyah, II) Hudna, III) Moodanah, all of which apply here and have no English translation of less than paragraph. The first 2 apply to very limited cease fires of a specific time length that serve only so that the Islamic side (it is also part of Islamic Theological Jurisprudence) may recoup its strength,regroup to the point that it is then ready to reenter battle and emerge victorious. The last one, number III, that is a real Cease Fire as imagined in the West. The problem with HAMAS is this. They refuse to even recognise the existence of Israel, so how do you parlez with an enetity that is non-existent? Recognition or failure top offer it is such a base issue that it goes without saying thast it must be a prerequisite to any real talks.
Thensaid entity refuses to iniate a short ceasefire as in #s I and II so that talks might take place in a civil atmosphere, but in their PR battle promise the first numbers I and II as a reward for opposing entities' acceptance of THEIR conditions.So what is Israel offered? Israel is offered one Israeli soldier (probably dead already for many months) in exchange for between 400 and 1000 HAMAS prisoners currently in Israeli jails.
They offer a limited time period of up to 10 years where they will not iniate any violence, unless they feel Israel has not continued to meet ITS obligations, and nothing else. To meet these conditions, Israel must withdraw completely and unequivocally to the Greenline, abandon half of Jerusalem, and accept all "Palestinian" refugees including their descendants and cyurrent family members so that HAMAS would then win Israel without a single bullet being fired.
That is not a Cease Fire, that is blackmail and Israel will never respond to it. Gen. Omar Suleiman of Egypt really has tried his best, to the point where many Arab leaders have publicly condemened HAMAS in the matter but nothing really changes. It is all but dead. Talk of it lingers but in a last oitch effort way.
If not, in several places it expresses its desire to kill EVERY JEW on Earth, not Israeli, Not Zionist, but every Jew. They are genocidal maniacs. They have been launching rockets and mortars ar us every day since we ceded Gaza to them in 2005. While Carter was in Egypt,etc., 4 Israelis were killed by these shells. This is why we should not be negotiating with them.
What really happened is this: The groups official birthdate is in 1987 but it actually dates to the 1930s and a Gazan branch of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. With the rest of the Brotherhood they were horribly repressed by each successive Egyptian Govt. until in 1967 Egypt refused to take Gaza back and we were left with its administration. At this point HAMAS began to branch away from Brotherhood bylaws and develop its own distinctive ideology and operational system.
Gaza is still and always was innundated with Israeli Intel and we always watched them in parallel fashion as they developed their distinctive views. They got into the habit of going into the Casbah and handing out handbills during Jummah and then pasting large posters onto walls in the Casbah and in smaller Casbahs and Souks all over the Strip.
The then began copying the methods of the Shia Hezbollah in operating a health and welfare net to take care of the majority who are the downtrodden of the area and whom tradional Arab leadership rarely even listened to let alone helped.
Anyone trying to understand our part of the world needs to realise that all societies are not the same. Arab society for example is vertical, not horizontal. IT has well established social hierarchies and HAMAS jumped over this well entrenched system and said to the very poor and typically disenfranchised, you may find an ear to listen and succor for what ails you and in this way they managed to indoctrinate quite alot of their neighbours.
Israeli Intel let HAMAS develop in the early days because we neded a way to offset the Marxist nonsense that was oh so prevalent back then and by the time we realised what we had in our laps it was too late. They were never Israeli clients ir assets though and to think so would be a waste of time. They were merely allowed to exist.
As to why we cannot now talk to them, we never could. We let them do their thing but since they took Gaza by coup (they already were its elected rulers but took over the entire govermeny in their coup, it would like a Democrat winning the American Presidency but still dealing with a multi party House and Senate...but then having Democratic footsoldiers take over all arms of the govt.
The following explains the Israeli Govt. positioin at the moment and the very near future.
If you come to an entity and say, "Look, everyone known HAMAS says you do not even exist but they are willing, in spite of their genocidal program for youe enrtire People worldwide, to talk with you about a limited ceasefire for a set number of months (please look up the defiinition of 3 Arabic words I)Ta'hadeeyah, II) Hudna, III) Moodanah, all of which apply here and have no English translation of less than paragraph. The first 2 apply to very limited cease fires of a specific time length that serve only so that the Islamic side (it is also part of Islamic Theological Jurisprudence) may recoup its strength,regroup to the point that it is then ready to reenter battle and emerge victorious. The last one, number III, that is a real Cease Fire as imagined in the West. The problem with HAMAS is this. They refuse to even recognise the existence of Israel, so how do you parlez with an enetity that is non-existent? Recognition or failure top offer it is such a base issue that it goes without saying thast it must be a prerequisite to any real talks.
Thensaid entity refuses to iniate a short ceasefire as in #s I and II so that talks might take place in a civil atmosphere, but in their PR battle promise the first numbers I and II as a reward for opposing entities' acceptance of THEIR conditions.So what is Israel offered? Israel is offered one Israeli soldier (probably dead already for many months) in exchange for between 400 and 1000 HAMAS prisoners currently in Israeli jails.
They offer a limited time period of up to 10 years where they will not iniate any violence, unless they feel Israel has not continued to meet ITS obligations, and nothing else. To meet these conditions, Israel must withdraw completely and unequivocally to the Greenline, abandon half of Jerusalem, and accept all "Palestinian" refugees including their descendants and cyurrent family members so that HAMAS would then win Israel without a single bullet being fired.
That is not a Cease Fire, that is blackmail and Israel will never respond to it. Gen. Omar Suleiman of Egypt really has tried his best, to the point where many Arab leaders have publicly condemened HAMAS in the matter but nothing really changes. It is all but dead. Talk of it lingers but in a last oitch effort way.
dilute micro
esse quam videri
Bill Clinton ran on 'change' too.
BlackSpecs
The DogFather
I watched Obama's speech ....went for dinner and when I came back Hillary was on the same platform saying the same things !
America really has a choice .......
America really has a choice .......
hipipol
Peckham Wry
Rachman
Egypt refused to take Gaza baxk in 67?
You'd only just invaded it you deranged warmongering git
Genocidal maniacs who want to kill every jew eh? haven't noticed any hamas attacks against anywhere other than Israel, of are you convinced that only Jews living in Israel are REAL Jews?
Actually Mossad and other Isaeli terrorist groups did fake bombings and anti Jewish attacks in Bagdad to sacre the Jewish population into resettling in Israel in the 50s - perhaps Hamas is simply another one of your countries security forces involved in some sort of "Black Ops" biz to keep yer Peaceniks in line?
Wouldn't surprise me
Egypt refused to take Gaza baxk in 67?
You'd only just invaded it you deranged warmongering git
Genocidal maniacs who want to kill every jew eh? haven't noticed any hamas attacks against anywhere other than Israel, of are you convinced that only Jews living in Israel are REAL Jews?
Actually Mossad and other Isaeli terrorist groups did fake bombings and anti Jewish attacks in Bagdad to sacre the Jewish population into resettling in Israel in the 50s - perhaps Hamas is simply another one of your countries security forces involved in some sort of "Black Ops" biz to keep yer Peaceniks in line?
Wouldn't surprise me
Hipipol: First of all, why do you sdeem it neccessary to denigrate me with name calling? Is your intllect that small, your position so limited that you need to deflect attention away from both with name calling?
The 67 War was subject to a UN Mediated Armistice, much like all our wars and Egypt which had merely run Gaza as a military adminisrtation (just as we did when we took over) had had enough of the anti-Egytpian terrorism of the pre-HAMAS Brotherhood cells and other militants. It fully reneged on its right to the territory, as did formerly Trans-Jordan although in its case it has formally annexed the entire "West Bank."
"Genocidal manaics.": Then I would suggest, at least for your own integrity as well as your own general knowledge that you find yourself an approved English translation of the Charter and ger busy. You are arguin the pros and cons of a group you obviously know nothing about. How sensible is that?
Yale University, via its Avalon Project, online, DOES offer a fine English translation of the bok length document and IF you really care about more than name calling, you should avail yourself to it.
"HAMAS only attacks Jews in Israel.": Again, read the Charter. Also, if you find yourself with time to spare, either watch al Akhsa TV the HAMAS flagship station available on satellite or some of the downloaded and translated excerpts that perfectly explain that part of their philosphy. Would not wamt to spoil it for you so try to read the Charter first and then, if you need some more guidance, let me know and I will post you a lengthly reading list (I can imagine your reaction to that but since you seem absolutley ignorant as to the group and its policies I thought to be kind and help you. LEt me lmpw if you truly wish to learn).
"Are Israeli Jews trhe only real Jews?": OF course not, the question is comical.
"MOSSAD and other Jewish terroristr groups.": MOSSAD is an acronym reporesenting our forieng Intel apparattus and is much a terrorist organisation as the CIA, KGB, and MI5 and 6. MOSSAD did not bomb Iraq, it bomb Egypt in the Lavon Affair but had nothing to do in either case with spurring Jewish emigratrion. See, as the son of a Jewish man from an Arab nation I hate to be the one to bring this to you but we uffered just as badly in those countriesd as we did in Europe with the only real difference in the ultimate numbers. Hitler was far more efficient but the 29 Riots killed more than almost all pograms put together.
Baghdadi Jews did not leave Iraq because of the MOSSAD but because of its Hashemite King who decided to charge 17 of his own citizens with espionage (only 2 foreigners were possibly guilty) and then issued a duirective seixing millions of dollars worth of their property and assets.
If it was due to MOSSAD, how come to this day those Jews were unable to return? See, the whole idea makes absolutely no sense but people that buy thast nonsense never stop for a second to think.
More than 1 million Jews fled Arab LAnds and not one was ever offered a single penny in restitution nor a formula for reperations. Care to continue? 1 Billion US in 1949 dollars?
As for your inane idea about HAMAS being an Israeli Intel program, if you EVER bother to read the Charter, you will have all the answers you know. Of course over the years I have found sadly, that people like you love to toss nonsense about but spare little of their actual time to read the prffered sources. Before you discuss HAMAS again, you really ought to read its Charter. After all, it is YOUR integrity at stake.
The 67 War was subject to a UN Mediated Armistice, much like all our wars and Egypt which had merely run Gaza as a military adminisrtation (just as we did when we took over) had had enough of the anti-Egytpian terrorism of the pre-HAMAS Brotherhood cells and other militants. It fully reneged on its right to the territory, as did formerly Trans-Jordan although in its case it has formally annexed the entire "West Bank."
"Genocidal manaics.": Then I would suggest, at least for your own integrity as well as your own general knowledge that you find yourself an approved English translation of the Charter and ger busy. You are arguin the pros and cons of a group you obviously know nothing about. How sensible is that?
Yale University, via its Avalon Project, online, DOES offer a fine English translation of the bok length document and IF you really care about more than name calling, you should avail yourself to it.
"HAMAS only attacks Jews in Israel.": Again, read the Charter. Also, if you find yourself with time to spare, either watch al Akhsa TV the HAMAS flagship station available on satellite or some of the downloaded and translated excerpts that perfectly explain that part of their philosphy. Would not wamt to spoil it for you so try to read the Charter first and then, if you need some more guidance, let me know and I will post you a lengthly reading list (I can imagine your reaction to that but since you seem absolutley ignorant as to the group and its policies I thought to be kind and help you. LEt me lmpw if you truly wish to learn).
"Are Israeli Jews trhe only real Jews?": OF course not, the question is comical.
"MOSSAD and other Jewish terroristr groups.": MOSSAD is an acronym reporesenting our forieng Intel apparattus and is much a terrorist organisation as the CIA, KGB, and MI5 and 6. MOSSAD did not bomb Iraq, it bomb Egypt in the Lavon Affair but had nothing to do in either case with spurring Jewish emigratrion. See, as the son of a Jewish man from an Arab nation I hate to be the one to bring this to you but we uffered just as badly in those countriesd as we did in Europe with the only real difference in the ultimate numbers. Hitler was far more efficient but the 29 Riots killed more than almost all pograms put together.
Baghdadi Jews did not leave Iraq because of the MOSSAD but because of its Hashemite King who decided to charge 17 of his own citizens with espionage (only 2 foreigners were possibly guilty) and then issued a duirective seixing millions of dollars worth of their property and assets.
If it was due to MOSSAD, how come to this day those Jews were unable to return? See, the whole idea makes absolutely no sense but people that buy thast nonsense never stop for a second to think.
More than 1 million Jews fled Arab LAnds and not one was ever offered a single penny in restitution nor a formula for reperations. Care to continue? 1 Billion US in 1949 dollars?
As for your inane idea about HAMAS being an Israeli Intel program, if you EVER bother to read the Charter, you will have all the answers you know. Of course over the years I have found sadly, that people like you love to toss nonsense about but spare little of their actual time to read the prffered sources. Before you discuss HAMAS again, you really ought to read its Charter. After all, it is YOUR integrity at stake.
hipipol
Peckham Wry
I can almost see the spittle on the screen when I red your rubbish Rabidman
Israel is a Colony placed in someone elses country intitially by the worlds greatest colonisers, Europeans
After the upsising in 66CE the Jews were driven form the land which had been promised to them by a burning bush, or at least the Bible says that a guy who was over 700 at the time said so do you believe that trash?
Jushua killed all the peeps who lived in Jerico I seem to recallwith the aid of magical trumpets...sounds realistic eh? The killing we know happened, the musical bit.....well........
Even in Biblical times you country was mired in blood
The madness of the Abrahamic Bollocks was then passed on Xtians and Muslims sow the wind, reap the whirlwind
The kill ratio, like for very Israeli dead at least 100 Arabs die makes you snivelling even worse
It may surprise you to know I have many Jewish friends, they are people, normal non nutty people, they do not have your unhinged belief that Israel is justified in its violence, and many are ashamed of the way they see Israelis behave abroad - contemptous of the locals, laughing and sneering at the ways of anyone who is not an Israeli, and that includes other Jews.
Your country has gone mad mate, utterly convinced that violence is the only way
I think you know how wrong that is, I think you know it because you are so extreme in your reponse to every supposed insult
Until you get a handle on the notion that your country is in fact a Terrorist Stae, I mean you elected Menachim Begin, he of the King david Hotel bombing, you will never recover from the madness that is destroying your society. How is hamas different? A persecuted people reach out to those who seem powerful to save them?
I'd like to think that its is possible for someone even as My Country Right or Wrong as you to actually calm down at one poiint, but I am not holding my breath
Israel is a Colony placed in someone elses country intitially by the worlds greatest colonisers, Europeans
After the upsising in 66CE the Jews were driven form the land which had been promised to them by a burning bush, or at least the Bible says that a guy who was over 700 at the time said so do you believe that trash?
Jushua killed all the peeps who lived in Jerico I seem to recallwith the aid of magical trumpets...sounds realistic eh? The killing we know happened, the musical bit.....well........
Even in Biblical times you country was mired in blood
The madness of the Abrahamic Bollocks was then passed on Xtians and Muslims sow the wind, reap the whirlwind
The kill ratio, like for very Israeli dead at least 100 Arabs die makes you snivelling even worse
It may surprise you to know I have many Jewish friends, they are people, normal non nutty people, they do not have your unhinged belief that Israel is justified in its violence, and many are ashamed of the way they see Israelis behave abroad - contemptous of the locals, laughing and sneering at the ways of anyone who is not an Israeli, and that includes other Jews.
Your country has gone mad mate, utterly convinced that violence is the only way
I think you know how wrong that is, I think you know it because you are so extreme in your reponse to every supposed insult
Until you get a handle on the notion that your country is in fact a Terrorist Stae, I mean you elected Menachim Begin, he of the King david Hotel bombing, you will never recover from the madness that is destroying your society. How is hamas different? A persecuted people reach out to those who seem powerful to save them?
I'd like to think that its is possible for someone even as My Country Right or Wrong as you to actually calm down at one poiint, but I am not holding my breath
hipipol
Peckham Wry
Oh yeah, if you must quote me, please dont mutate it I never said that Hamas only attecked JEWS in Israel, I said "only attacked Israel", I beleive you have Arab citzens, some of whome have died in Hamas attacks. Or do they not count for you?
I'd see a Doctor soon, one that can give you the sedative products you obviously need
I'd see a Doctor soon, one that can give you the sedative products you obviously need
Hipipol: "Spittle on the screen.": Why would that ever happened? Out of anger? I am probably the most even keeled person you would ever see. I have excellent control over my actions and do not take things read over the internet personally. Even thingws I take personally in real life do not get much of a jolt out of me.
As for making fun of my name, it is my real name and not a screenname making it that much sadder on your part, why would you waste your time? If the idea here is a mature and fair minded exchange of opinions, would not your trampling of my name just come off as a sad attempt to deflect attention away from your lack of substance?
"After the uprising in 66 CE Jews were driven from the land.": See? That is hilarious because my dad was not born in 65 CE, he was born in the late 1920s, in Hebron and my family never went into exile. Israel has had a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence for 4500 years.
When Arabs took Gaza, aside from a single Byzantine garrison in Gaza City, the entire Gaza Strip was populated by Jews.
In the 4th Century CE we were building a 3rd Temple so, at the very least, you need to bone up on your basic history.
Then you jump in between Bible Bashing (I am a secular Jew, not at all religious so you are wasting your time and again showing another form on inherent bias) and the disparity between kill ratios . PErhaps calming down and concentrating, that or taking some sort of testing for Attention Deficit Disorder might make this "conversation" easier on people.
Now let me TRY and address your "points."
Israel is a Secular nation. There is freedom of worship but it has nothing to do with the givernment itself.
As for kill ratios, what would you expect when you attack the world's 4th largest army with Qassams and the intermittent Grad? One APOache could clean up half of Gaza if we were not at all concerned with Collateral Damage but that is not how the world works.
We do the very best we can in Assymetrical and Close Quarter Combat scenarios that would produce astronomical Collaterla Damage for any other Proactive Force. Gaza is literally the most densely populated spot on Earth and when people who launch 1200 mm rockets out of their neighbours yeards and then immediately melt back into their own homes filled will all kinds of relatives we have but two choices: I) Do nothing and continue allowing our People to live in constant tension and danger or to risk incurring Collateral Damage from instigators who then hide behind women and children knowing that at the very worst those women and children will be killed and more points will be won in the even more important war of propaganda.
Why else would PIJ blow up 2 of the major eelctrical conduits servicing Gazan infrastructure knowing that anyone in N. Gaza (area served by those 2 conduits) needing resiprators, other medical devices running on electrcity, and so on just might die because of their callous actions.
An army is not evil because itt has better equipment, better leadership, and better training. Even with the disparity, who publicly admits that theirs is a program of complete genocide? Only the Arabs can wear that hat.
Your bias is clear when you tell us , as most raicsts do, that you "have plenty of Jewish friends" but it is crystallised when you tell us that even these "Jewish friends" are horrified about the nasty way Israeli aborad behave. IF ever ther were a blanket indictment, you have provided it. Are you a Neo-Nazi?
"King David Hotel.": First, get your facts straight. The Kig David Hotel was the British Manadate Headquarters and that included the military thus making it s a just military objective.
Secondly, if electing Begin, a man who renounced his earlier actions, is in effect making Israel a "Terrorist State," what do you call post-Apartheid South Africa? Is this too a "Terrorist State?" Interested to see your "view" on that one.
"How is HAMAS Different?": Easy Answer. Not one Jewish Terrorist or Terror Ogranisation (all 6 of them in 5000 years of history) have ever aimed for the total genocide of any people. As I asked, DID YOU READ THE HAMAS CHARTER? It is available in the Mid-East Forum in a thread of the ssame name iniated by Durruti. Do your integrity a favour and take agnader and then tell of us if there is any difference between blowing up a military HQ of a Coloniser and aiming to exterminate an entire race. I am sure that you could get your mind around that one.
Indeed, many Arabs have been killed by HAMAS. In fact, thay have and continue to kill more Arabs almost every day. The point though is that they aim to only kill Jews, each and every Jew on Earth. Therein lies the distinction and one would think that this would have been quite clear to anyone reading the post. Again, do yourself a favour and read the Charter.
As for making fun of my name, it is my real name and not a screenname making it that much sadder on your part, why would you waste your time? If the idea here is a mature and fair minded exchange of opinions, would not your trampling of my name just come off as a sad attempt to deflect attention away from your lack of substance?
"After the uprising in 66 CE Jews were driven from the land.": See? That is hilarious because my dad was not born in 65 CE, he was born in the late 1920s, in Hebron and my family never went into exile. Israel has had a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence for 4500 years.
When Arabs took Gaza, aside from a single Byzantine garrison in Gaza City, the entire Gaza Strip was populated by Jews.
In the 4th Century CE we were building a 3rd Temple so, at the very least, you need to bone up on your basic history.
Then you jump in between Bible Bashing (I am a secular Jew, not at all religious so you are wasting your time and again showing another form on inherent bias) and the disparity between kill ratios . PErhaps calming down and concentrating, that or taking some sort of testing for Attention Deficit Disorder might make this "conversation" easier on people.
Now let me TRY and address your "points."
Israel is a Secular nation. There is freedom of worship but it has nothing to do with the givernment itself.
As for kill ratios, what would you expect when you attack the world's 4th largest army with Qassams and the intermittent Grad? One APOache could clean up half of Gaza if we were not at all concerned with Collateral Damage but that is not how the world works.
We do the very best we can in Assymetrical and Close Quarter Combat scenarios that would produce astronomical Collaterla Damage for any other Proactive Force. Gaza is literally the most densely populated spot on Earth and when people who launch 1200 mm rockets out of their neighbours yeards and then immediately melt back into their own homes filled will all kinds of relatives we have but two choices: I) Do nothing and continue allowing our People to live in constant tension and danger or to risk incurring Collateral Damage from instigators who then hide behind women and children knowing that at the very worst those women and children will be killed and more points will be won in the even more important war of propaganda.
Why else would PIJ blow up 2 of the major eelctrical conduits servicing Gazan infrastructure knowing that anyone in N. Gaza (area served by those 2 conduits) needing resiprators, other medical devices running on electrcity, and so on just might die because of their callous actions.
An army is not evil because itt has better equipment, better leadership, and better training. Even with the disparity, who publicly admits that theirs is a program of complete genocide? Only the Arabs can wear that hat.
Your bias is clear when you tell us , as most raicsts do, that you "have plenty of Jewish friends" but it is crystallised when you tell us that even these "Jewish friends" are horrified about the nasty way Israeli aborad behave. IF ever ther were a blanket indictment, you have provided it. Are you a Neo-Nazi?
"King David Hotel.": First, get your facts straight. The Kig David Hotel was the British Manadate Headquarters and that included the military thus making it s a just military objective.
Secondly, if electing Begin, a man who renounced his earlier actions, is in effect making Israel a "Terrorist State," what do you call post-Apartheid South Africa? Is this too a "Terrorist State?" Interested to see your "view" on that one.
"How is HAMAS Different?": Easy Answer. Not one Jewish Terrorist or Terror Ogranisation (all 6 of them in 5000 years of history) have ever aimed for the total genocide of any people. As I asked, DID YOU READ THE HAMAS CHARTER? It is available in the Mid-East Forum in a thread of the ssame name iniated by Durruti. Do your integrity a favour and take agnader and then tell of us if there is any difference between blowing up a military HQ of a Coloniser and aiming to exterminate an entire race. I am sure that you could get your mind around that one.
Indeed, many Arabs have been killed by HAMAS. In fact, thay have and continue to kill more Arabs almost every day. The point though is that they aim to only kill Jews, each and every Jew on Earth. Therein lies the distinction and one would think that this would have been quite clear to anyone reading the post. Again, do yourself a favour and read the Charter.
Similar threads
- Poll
