agricola
a genuine importer of owls
So hypothetical that you went off on one based on the answer to it, and indeed have twisted that into some kind of allegation that the US is deeply and fundamentally evil. It isnt.
Obama and Clinton Dream Ticket
- Thread starter Gmart
- Start date
So hypothetical that you went off on one based on the answer to it, and indeed have twisted that into some kind of allegation that the US is deeply and fundamentally evil. It isnt.
So its ok if they oppress their own people.
I call it not having an argument. Every time I question you, you make posts like this. I'm quite damn tired of having my place of birth used as an argument against everything I post, no matter the content of those posts. Its nothing more than a cheap ploy to shut me up. It must really save you having to think of a rational response.
No it's not okay they repress their own people.
YW, i may make posts like this because in all of politics it's the thing i'd like most to change, the empire actions of the US, and often their predecessor the UK.
I make no intention to link any of my anti-USGs rants with you and your being american. I'm not arguing against you - you may recall that you replied to one of my posts here, to which i then argued my point. And i certainly don't want to shut you up. My only knowledge of you happens to be that you're one of the sane americans in your country.
In short nothing i say is intended to be linked in any way to you. I attack both your country and mine regularly since i loathe their foreign policy and foreign actions. I know plenty of american and british people who feel just the same way.
Please stop perceiving that i'm having a go at you in any way. There's no room on a political forum to espouse all the things i like about your country and mine.
No, my understandings about the US started from the carter presidency days. The countless stuff i've read about their foreign policy leads me to say they are responsible for all sorts of atrocities, while overseeing some deep program of propaganda to their own people about their freedom-lovin' ways.
And this same propaganda rubs off on the majority of british people too.
If you look at hotspots around the world today, and in the last few decades, wherever you have a country illegally invading another country it is just about ALWAYS the US, and often with the UK tagging along.
The US and UK are killers, and therefore i say there is no such thing as any kind of dream ticket in either country politically. Politics is anti-freedom.
No agricola, i don't make any allegations about the US. I talk only based on the facts and evidence of their foreign policy actions all over the world since the second world war, something you seem entirely ignorant of.
The propaganda has eaten you.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Um - no. How is it you can say the above when I pointed out that any of the candidates would nuke Iran in the situation described?
Wolveryeti
Detty Pig
I support Hilary for White House Tea Lady.
pseudonarcissus
fluttering and dancing
Not Clinton: Obama and Clinton in some ways appeal to the same voters and neither to white, male, working class union members (the democratic base) so john Edwards would be a good candidate. He is also a while middle-aged male. A commentator recently remarked that Obama will have a hard time winning as not enough bigots are dead yet. They may be slightly reassured by a white man as vice president.
As for McCain, Rice would be an astute choice if he wants to go for the centre but he's going to struggle to energize the republican base as it is. Fortunately he's not going to have to go so far as having a far-right vice president such as Huckabee
As for McCain, Rice would be an astute choice if he wants to go for the centre but he's going to struggle to energize the republican base as it is. Fortunately he's not going to have to go so far as having a far-right vice president such as Huckabee
dilute micro
esse quam videri
Because you appear to think the actions of slaughtering several million citizens is not akin to being "deeply and fundamentally evil". Such actions by hitler and by mao, and by stalin were considered this way, but not the same actions by USGs.
That's why the propaganda's eaten you.
Here's pilger exposing the mainstream propaganda that so many in the US live under, as do the british.
And in doing so, he amply exposes the futility of investing a single ounce of hope or optimism about obama as a future president...
After all, it is the game of power that is boss, and the president's first duty is to protect the rules of the game.
"It is time the wishful-thinkers grew up politically and debated the world of great power as it is, not as they hope it will be. Like all serious presidential candidates, past and present, Obama is a hawk and an expansionist. He comes from an unbroken Democratic tradition, as the war-making of presidents Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter and Clinton demonstrates."
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=492
And in doing so, he amply exposes the futility of investing a single ounce of hope or optimism about obama as a future president...
After all, it is the game of power that is boss, and the president's first duty is to protect the rules of the game.
"It is time the wishful-thinkers grew up politically and debated the world of great power as it is, not as they hope it will be. Like all serious presidential candidates, past and present, Obama is a hawk and an expansionist. He comes from an unbroken Democratic tradition, as the war-making of presidents Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter and Clinton demonstrates."
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=492
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
For every sane comment Pilger makes he ruins it by some outright loonery. Truman as a warmaking President? Please.
Also please note that just because you declaim that millions of people have died in Mao / Hitler-style atrocities carried out by the US, this does not make it true.
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
Absolutely. Aside from giving the executive order to drop gurt big nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and for going in to Korea, he was an entirely pacific president.
Total deaths: C.2,250,000
For every sane comment Pilger makes he ruins it by some outright loonery. Truman as a warmaking President? Please.
Also please note that just because you declaim that millions of people have died in Mao / Hitler-style atrocities carried out by the US, this does not make it true.
Wasn't it truman who obliterated two cities in japan...?
What do you mean 'declaim'?
I don't claim that the US have snuffed out millions of lives, it is verifiable fact. If you deign to not believe it, then that's just more proof the propaganda has eaten you.
I'm afraid the propaganda's eaten her.
Pilger is impeccably researched. Unlike you he has not succumbed to western elites' propaganda.
To be fair to yourself, you're in the company of a large majority of US and UK nationals.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Um... the two nukes were dropped as part of WW2, which the Japanese started in the Pacific and who had themselves killed considerably more than 2,250,000 people by a variety of brutal methods. The two nukes ended that conflict, and indeed the human cost may well have been far less than it could have been if we had used "conventional" munitions and invaded in a humane, non-nuclear fashion.
As for Korea, it may have escaped your notice but the North Koreans did actually invade South Korea, so surely the blame for the casualties has to be directed toward them, and not a US President who actually discharged his countrys international obligations (albeit with a run-down funding-starved military) in line with a unanimous* UN resolution.
* albeit with a Soviet boycott.
Listen to this language. I thought you were a policewoman, but you would be much better suited to being a politician.
'Japan' had killed over two and a quarter million people? Easy to hide behind the horror by using the word of japan. A country can kill nobody. Only the people running that country can create the killing fields.
And because the japanese powers that be killed many people (and i dispute your numbers), you find it okay that the american powers that be can kill off a couple of million innocent japanese citizens...
Unreal. Luckily for you it weren't none of your friends of family that were nuked out of existence.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
They didnt kill "a couple of million innocent Japanese citizens" - please, if you are going to criticize peoples numbers, take care to check your own first. Details of the fatalities come from here. One must also note that the alternative was to continue conventional bombing and invasion, which given that the Toyko incendiary raid of March 1945 killed more people than either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
This of course assumes you recognize that there was actually a war taking place during that period.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
The Japanese too committed acts that caused greater casulties than the bombing of those two cities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
<edited to add>
Not to leave anyone out, I suggest you check out the bombing of Dresden and "The Blitz." No one had clean hands during that era.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
<edited to add>
Not to leave anyone out, I suggest you check out the bombing of Dresden and "The Blitz." No one had clean hands during that era.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
My father, however, was poised to go into Japan just about that time. I wonder if I'd be here now if the invasion had gone forward.
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
Yes. And your paragon of pacifism ordered their dropping. Is there anything you wish to contend in that fact?
Debatable. The Japanese were trying to sue for a negotiated settlement via Stalin when the US dropped the bombs. Many would contend that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were used to display American might in what was essentially the opening salvo of the cold war.
He intervened militarily in a civil war partly of his own making. UN charters do not cover civil wars, and the UN resolution giving the US carte blanche to intervene was a legally debatable fig leaf.
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
Clinton?
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
The casualties of the Korean war alone surely dwarf the direct consequences of any of Mr Clinton's misadventures in Africa and the Balkans?
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
Yes, definitely. i was just questioning whether he was the most "hawk like"!!
and of course the consequences of the Korean war are still with us today
I dont know much about Truman's other foreign policy "mishaps" tbh
The Marshall Plan - effectively kick-starting the Cold War on very much the wrong foot.
Pretty bad mishap, that one.
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
AH yeah, that was truman wasn't it? So yeah ... you were right!
however, he did have a lot of doubts about whether to support Israel ...
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