November 11th

[Bigdavalad]

But I didn;t say all of them I said most. I think it's pretty obvious that your claim that more soldiers are killed in war than civilians simply isn't true nowadays.

Point taken mate

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Because we remember the brave soldiers who died fighting for their country on Remembrance Day?

This is a very delicate issue. And the last thing those of us opposed to the actions of the British army ought to be doing is giving offence to the memories of the millions of decent men and women who gave their lives.

But neither is it something we can duck. I have a very good friend who helps organise Remembrance Day events in Swindon. He served in Northern Ireland and was badly injured there. He told me he'd hissed abuse at people at the main event of the day in the centre of town because they were talking rhough the 2 mins silence. Now he knows I disagree with the role the army he was a member of played in ulster. And we have constructive discussions about that all the time (even beer fueled ones!). But I was very wary of broaching the Poppy issue until he pushed the point and demanded to know why I refused to wear one.

Now let me say that I did respect the silences (both at work and on the Sunday) and despite my own reservations about the whole thing I had no objection to my wife buying a poppy for our son. In fact it's a good thing that a 5 year old takes seriously the deaths of so many and asks questions about why it happened etc. The exact politics of the thing are obviously for a lot later in his life.

But that doesn't change the fact that I couldn't wear one. Firstly because of the way the events are organised to reinforce loyalty to the very bastards who sent these people out to die in the first place. The fake humanity of the establishment starting with the Royals is puke inducing.

Secondly of course the whole thing is very selective. Leave aside the issue of foreign dead. Given that some of the conflicts remembered are domestic ones then the whole thing rules out as unimportant the deaths of those who were fighting the Crown.

Then there's the fact that I cannot with all good conscience say that I have respect for all those who have killed and been killed in the service of the UK. The scum in the Black and Tans who burned down my grandfather's home town of BalBriggan weren't brave and they don't have my respect as honoured dead.

But like I say all of this has to be balanced against the common ground that socialists and anti-imperialists will have particularily with the majority of people who quite rightly are proud of their fathers and grandfathers who resisted Hitler in WWII.

 

[TAE]

It's nothing to do with celebrating war or the killing of soldiers from other countries.

Because we remember the brave soldiers who died fighting for their country on Remembrance Day?

 

[Bigdavalad]

Why the confusion? Remembering the dead is nothing to do with glorifying war or celebrating other people dying. It's like saying going to a funeral is glorifying cancer or road accidents.

 

[TAE]

You are not seriously telling me that Remembrance Day does not honour and glorify those who have fought and died in the UK's wars, are you ?
All that flag waving and expressions of thankfulness?

 

[knopf]

I wear a poppy on Armistice Day, but not for Remembrance Sunday. Armistice Day, for me at least, is about remembering the poor sods who died or had their lives ruined by fighting in the bosses' wars. Remembrance Sunday is the Queen at the Cenotaph -- not for me, thanks.

As I say, this is "for me at least." It's not a fully worked out political stance or owt.

 

[greenman]

Interesting facts about November 11th -
November 11th is St Martin's Day.
St Martin of Tours was a soldier turned holy man. His feast day has long been associated with autumnal slaughter - in some parts of England of cows, beef - in most of Europe, particularly Germany, geese.
A whole range of folk tales surround St Martin - many "cloaking" information for "those with eyes to see" - some involve geese, a main part of the story involves his cloak - which he "divided with a beggar".
St Martin is IMO a thinly veiled Christianisation of the ancient Pagan war gods Mars, Ares and Tiw/Tyr - all of whom share various attributes. One interesting motif in this mythology is the horse - often red/brown - later mutating into the mythical beast Bayard or Byard, that appears in some interesting locations around Europe.

St Martin's Day

Martin of Tours

 

[Bigdavalad]

This is a very delicate issue. And the last thing those of us opposed to the actions of the British army ought to be doing is giving offence to the memories of the millions of decent men and women who gave their lives.

<snipped (I hate people that quote massive posts for no good reason)>

But like I say all of this has to be balanced against the common ground that socialists and anti-imperialists will have particularily with the majority of people who quite rightly are proud of their fathers and grandfathers who resisted Hitler in WWII.

I don't consider the Black and Tans as worth much either mate - they were a disgrace to the uniforms they had worn (don't forget they were not part of the Army though - don't lump them in with us) and a part of British history that I am not proud of.

I've no love for politicians myself, I despise Blair and look forward to dancing on his grave one day. I'd as soon have the Remembrance parades without any politicians, they have no place there. I don't agree about the Royals though - the Queen has served her country (ATS), as have Phil the Greek (decorated by the Greek Navy, a genuine war hero) and Andrew (Falklands with the RN). I think since the Armed Forces all serve the Queen, it's right that she should be there to place a wreath on behalf of the country in memory of 'her' servicemen (and her father's and her great grandfather's before her) who have laid down their lives.

Foreign deaths - although the Remembrance services are for British/Commonwealth casualties, I personally spare a thought for all soldiers who have laid down there lives for their country. I was discussing this with someone last night in fact, watching 'The Somme' on C4 - I have no hatred for the Germans or the Argentinians, they were mostly just yound lads like our soldiers were, doing their best to get home in one piece. I'll never forgive the Japanese for what they did in the war (even after working with them in Iraq) because my nan despised them and I've got that from her (two of my granddad's brothers died on the Burma railway, so her hate is no real surprise), and I can't respect the SS as being worth remembering (although I can respect their military achievements). Likewise I don't think the IRA are worth remembering because they are terrorists, and in my opinion all terrorists deserve to die (including the Loyalists, before anyone starts with that).

Personally I feel you can remember anyone you like during the silence and the service, as long as you respect the silence and the fact that it is primarily a service to remember British/Commonwealth deaths.

Respecting the silence - that's all I ask of anyone on 11/11 or on the sunday. Whether you agree with it or not, I don't think it's much to ask for you to be quiet for two minutes in memory of people who have died.

Buying a poppy or not is a choice you have to make, although I don't agree with anyone not buying one (since it's thanks to the people your poppy money goes to that you are able to make a choice about your life) I can understand that some people do not wish to and would never have a go at someone for not doing it (unless I knew them).

 

[ViolentPanda]

You are not seriously telling me that Remembrance Day does not honour and glorify those who have fought and died in the UK's wars, are you ?
All that flag waving and expressions of thankfulness?

Perhaps you should divorce the way the media and the establishment project Remembrance day from how people may personally perceive it.
Just because the media waves the flag and blathers on about "the glorious dead " (not a phrase anyone except a poet should use) doesn't mean most of us do, and if you've read through this thread you'll know that.

There's also a big difference between commemorating the (witting or unwitting) sacrifice of millions of lives on the altar of war, and glorifying those actions.

So yes, I am seriously telling you that for many (perhaps a majority of) people, Remembrance day does not glorify, it commemorates and honours.

 

[Bigdavalad]

You are not seriously telling me that Remembrance Day does not honour and glorify those who have fought and died in the UK's wars, are you ?
All that flag waving and expressions of thankfulness?

It honours them. I don't think there's anything glorious about young lads being slaughtered in the mud in Flanders, only someone who hasn't seen war could ever try to call it glorious.

What's wrong with saying thank you? Without lads going and fighting and dying, we'd be speaking German by now, and a hell of a lot of people on here would be three bars of cheap soap and some fertiliser - were the men who went and fought that war not worth respect?

 

[TAE]

Should we honour the german soldiers who fought and died for their country?

 

[Bigdavalad]

Should we honour the german soldiers who fought and died for their country?

Did you read my very large post about 4 up from here?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Did you read my very large post about 4 up from here?

It doesn't look like he did, does it?

 

[TAE]

I have and my question remains unanswered.

I have no problem with individual people remembering individual fallen soldiers, but I cannot honour the british army as a whole, nor can I be grateful for every battle that has been fought.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Do you think they are not brave?

My guess is that they weren't all brave. I'll bet some were scared shitless.

That's not the point to me. All of them deserve honour, respect, and remembrance.

 

[Bigdavalad]

I have and my question remains unanswered.

How is it unanswered?

although the Remembrance services are for British/Commonwealth casualties, I personally spare a thought for all soldiers who have laid down there lives for their country.

I don't think it should be an official thing to remember the dead of our former enemies (it may well upset our own veterans after all), but as I said above, I spare a thought for all young men who served their country and made the ultimate sacrifice while doing it.

 

[TAE]

To me there is a huge difference between "remembering all those who were unfortunate enough to get killed" and "honouring those who fought and died for their country".

 

[Bigdavalad]

To me there is a huge difference between "remembering all those who were unfortunate enough to get killed" and "honouring those who fought and died for their country".

What's the difference?

 

[TAE]

The difference is whether you agree with and support their reason for taking part in the war.

For instance, I personally would not honour a german soldier who took part in WWII. I may well mourn and remember those germans who got killed (simply because they are human beings), but I will not 'honour their sacrifice'.

As far as the british forces are concerned, WWII was clearly a fight against fascism and as such one must acknowledge the good which came out of it, but generally I have little time for those individuals who join up to go and kill foreigners for good old england, nor do I believe that Britannia should rule the waves.

At heart I'm an internationalist, and am far more interested in the good that people do for humanity as a whole, rather than what they have achieved for their own country. Hence my admiration for those pilots who risked (and lost) their lives during the Berlin airlift, for instance.

 

[Nigel]

Imperialist Wars

I think that the issue is pragmatic.
Not all wars where the dead a commemorated at Rememberence Day ceremonies are/were for Imperial Gain.
Only an idiot would argue that a region/nation state does not need a standing army to defend itself(especially in this day and age).
The blame for the use of military force should be put on those who mandate conflict for Imperial and Exploitative gain. Not those who have chosen to join the Military forces.

 

[TAE]

A lot of the wars were (and still are) less about defending the nation and more about defending the nation's interests abroad (just like most other nations do when they have the chance). Also, every soldier who fought, killed, and died in a war had their own individual reason for being there, and so there have been many reasons and many attitudes - some I agree with, many I don't.
Hence I can't stand there and honour all those who fought and died for their country, though I can of course mourn their deaths, and there are of course a few which I believe do deserve recognition.

BTW, I never understood the LibDem position of opposing the Iraq war while supporting the troops which were actually fighting that war.