nottingham police taser & beat man

[goosegrease]

I think this raises a wider issue and this is a familier story. Police use exessive force and get caught in the act. I'm sure there is no need to tazer more than once, especially as he was on the floor through out as the video shows.
Only a few weeks ago Ian Tomlinson suffered a heart attack after being attacked by officers from the met.
An innocent man was shot by armed response for carrying a table leg down the street (I cant remember the details but I could find them). Most high profile was the shootiing of De Menzes on the tube.
The Police cannot be trusted with the authority they have. I think that after 12 years of a particulrly authoritarian government they are getting carried away. Nottingham it's self is something of a petty police state (for want of a better term), I was thretened with arrest by a big man in a florecent jacket for smoking on the steps of the council house, a busy and popular place for people to meet, and an open area.
Democratisation of the police and closer scrutiny of their training and the culture that exists within police forces up and down the country is desperately needed, cases like this make it a very easy argument to make.

 

[Azrael]

Police use exessive force and get caught in the act. I'm sure there is no need to tazer more than once, especially as he was on the floor through out as the video shows.

I'm not sure this follows. He wasn't putting his arms behind his back as ordered, and we've no idea what occurred prior to the video. Without full knowledge of the circumstances I'm not in a position to judge.

I agree the police are heavier handed in general. Made remote through forty years of stupid and idealistic reforms, they have little regular contact with the public, and see themselves as a class apart rather than as citizens in uniform. Tempted with excessive power, festooned with weapons and burdened with bureaucracy, they've been put in an unenviable position.

The solution is to repeal authoritarian laws, sack the useless and incompetent officers hired in the misguided drive to increase numbers, and return the decent men and women to a beat system. The best way to democratize the police is to ensure they patrol the streets with no powers beyond those available to the ordinary person.

 

[JHE]

He wasn't putting his arms behind his back as ordered...

You are right, but one of the things that struck me was that I didn't know why. There are various possibilities. One possibility is that being tasered was making him incapable of doing what he was being ordered to do.

Did he understand what the police were saying to him? Does he understand (enough) English? If he knows English, was he nevertheless too pissed to understand? I'd be surprised if booze didn't come into the story somewhere. Was the pain too great for him to be able to do the sensible thing? How much does the pain affect hearing? How much does it impede comprehension? Does a taser incapacitate you so much that you lose normal control of your limbs?

 

[goosegrease]

I'm not sure this follows. He wasn't putting his arms behind his back as ordered, and we've no idea what occurred prior to the video. Without full knowledge of the circumstances I'm not in a position to judge.

Come on, he'd been tazerd once while on the floor. He did'nt even have the energy to scream the second time. How many coppers was there by that time? Four. He would have had to be super human to pose a threat to officers safety by that point.

 

[Azrael]

You are right, but one of the things that struck me was that I didn't know why.

All the questions you raise are sensible. If the force was excessive, and importantly, the police knew it was excessive, the officers should be prosecuted. These are all questions for an inquiry with proper access to the evidence. Without a full version of events we're not in a position to judge. Out-and-out brutality like a kick to the head or so on is different, but I don't see any of that.

Come on, he'd been tazerd once while on the floor. He did'nt even have the energy to scream the second time. How many coppers was there by that time? Four. He would have had to be super human to pose a threat to officers safety by that point.

You don't have to be super human to assault an officer before his colleagues can get to him. And if the suspect wasn't incapacitated, how else, beside the punches, are the police supposed to get the cuffs on him?

The wider point is that policing by consent is diminished and continues to diminish. If we don't find a way to return to it, incidents like this will become increasingly common.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Only a few weeks ago Ian Tomlinson suffered a heart attack after being attacked by officers from the met.

Tomlinson died of internal bleeding - the cops got their bent pathologist to say 'heart attack' in order to make it look like 'natrural casues' rather than as a direct result of being assualted by a cop. A second Post mortem directly contradicted that.

If you give Cops more weapons and protection becasue it makes them far more likely to inflict unwarrented violence on the rest of us.

 

[badco]

Beat him up?I must've blinked during that part.To me the only part of that video that looked a tad ott was the 3 second tasering...that was fucking harsh.How are police supposed to deal with violent people?

 

[badco]

the punching at c.0.40 is ott no matter what

I's standard procedureTheres no background whatsoever for this video so you can't really go making assumptions

 

[xes]

I's standard procedureTheres no background whatsoever for this video so you can't really go making assumptions

appart from all copper are bastards

 

[badco]

appart from all copper are bastards

appart from that of course.I wonder if the bloke in that vid had attacked the OP would he still be so negative about the restraint used against him?...That's asuming the bloke was actually violent

 

[xes]

appart from that of course.I wonder if the bloke in that vid had attacked the OP would he still be so negative about the restraint used against him?...That's asuming the bloke was actually violent

Ok, we can go on the assumption that he may have been violent, but he wasn't being violent whilst he was being tasered. He was subdued, and then he was punched. Which is not reasonable force.

 

[JimW]

Counter Azrael's notion that the police used to enjoy the meek compliance of the populace:

Many people felt that the old ‘Watch system’ was cheaper so therefore far more efficient, and many people would not co-operate with the new police. (They were given all sorts of unpleasant names such as ‘Raw Lobsters’.)...
In fact many people did as much as they could to whip up anti-police feeling amongst the public. The situation got so bad a number of the Peelers were assaulted and even murdered. Even rich people encouraged their coachmen to lash out at the Peelers or even better, run them down! There was talk in London of attacking Wellington and assassinating both him and Peel, and it was widely alleged that ‘Peel’s Bloody Gang’ had been issued with 6,000 cutlasses from the Tower of London.

Which is from the history section of the Devon and Cornwall plod: http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/v3/about/history/vicpolice/peel.htm

 

[badco]

Ok, we can go on the assumption that he may have been violent, but he wasn't being violent whilst he was being tasered. He was subdued, and then he was punched. Which is not reasonable force.

He was resisting in that he wasn't responding to commands i.e ''put your arms out'' and he kept his arms tucked into his chest.

The tasering seemed a bit over enthusiastic i'll say that much

 

[xes]

He was resisting in that he wasn't responding to commands i.e ''put your arms out'' and he kept his arms tucked into his chest.

Whilst being electrocuted, your muscles spasm, it's rather hard to do things like "put your arms out"

 

[badco]

Whilst being electrocuted, your muscles spasm, it's rather hard to do things like "put your arms out"

whatever

 

[badco]

further to that the video lasts 69 seconds of which he is tasered for a total of 6 seconds.He makes no attempt to surrender his self during any of the 69 seconds

 

[untethered]

I think that's a myth to gain acceptance.

No, it was the original terms of engagement for using Tasers. They were only available to firearms officers and only used as a direct substitute for firearms in situations where they were considered appropriate.

But having looked it up the "firearms officers only" thing was just the thin end of the wedge. In 2008 Tasers were made available to all forces and a much larger number of officers to use in situations where they or the public faced "serious violence".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-to-get-more-tasers-1031531.html

I don't see any serious violence in this video except on the part of the police. Indeed we are told that the suspect was Tasered three times, presumably the first was before the video started. I absolutely question the need for them to have done it a further two times when the man was down, massively outnumbered and clearly not in a position to inflict any serious violence on anyone. He wasn't co-operating but he was clearly no longer a threat.

Or let's put it another way, if an officer had used lethal force in that situation do you think he would be able to claim self defence? Clearly the serious threat had passed and while it was obviously necessary for the officers to continue to use some force to complete the arrest, not the type and scale that they did.

 

[Cobbles]

"Nottinghamshire Police said no complaint had been made but they have referred the footage to the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC)."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/nottinghamshire/8101763.stm

So the errant piss-head who assaulted and hospitalised a police officer called by door staff clearly didn't think that the tasering officers were acting unfairly.

Clearly, the Notts police are trying to cover this up by referring themselves to the IPCC despite the lack of a complaint..........

 

[xes]

the bastards

 

[belboid]

further to that the video lasts 69 seconds of which he is tasered for a total of 6 seconds.He makes no attempt to surrender his self during any of the 69 seconds

oh look, a BNP member chimes in to unconditionally support the police, shock horror!

Funnily enough, the effect of a taser is rather more than the seconds it is actually being used on a victim - it wouldn't be that much use if its only effect lasted only as long as the cops were unable to touch him! Thus it is highly plausible that the man was still in no position to really 'surrender' between being tasered, and being beaten.

We obviously dont see exactly what led up to the incident (not that that would stop some from unconditinally supporting whatever the cops decide they want to do) but we do know that a 40 year old man was arrested for GBH. Assuming that that man wasn't one of the cops, then it seems the man on the floor hit someone before being assaulted himself. had he 'assaulted' anyone other than a copper, the details would almost definitely have come out in the local press (nottingham being lucky enough to still have one!). They havent. Indeed the man who filmed the incident has said why he started to do so, his tale is telling:

"One of the policemen came from behind him, kicked his legs from under him, and it just started into a bit of a mad brawl.

"The bloke was tasered three times. He was pretty much out of it, I think. And while all that's happening he gets three punches."

 

[belboid]

So the errant piss-head who assaulted and hospitalised a police officer called by door staff clearly didn't think that the tasering officers were acting unfairly.

yes, of course tat is the only possible interpretation. imbecile

 

[badco]

oh look, a BNP member chimes in to unconditionally support the police, shock horror!

Funnily enough, the effect of a taser is rather more than the seconds it is actually being used on a victim - it wouldn't be that much use if its only effect lasted only as long as the cops were unable to touch him! Thus it is highly plausible that the man was still in no position to really 'surrender' between being tasered, and being beaten.

We obviously dont see exactly what led up to the incident (not that that would stop some from unconditinally supporting whatever the cops decide they want to do) but we do know that a 40 year old man was arrested for GBH. Assuming that that man wasn't one of the cops, then it seems the man on the floor hit someone before being assaulted himself. had he 'assaulted' anyone other than a copper, the details would almost definitely have come out in the local press (nottingham being lucky enough to still have one!). They havent. Indeed the man who filmed the in

Oh look a lefty lala land gang member shouting foul play by the police...again

shock fucking horror

 

[belboid]

<giggles>

very comprehensive answer that, fashboy

 

[likesfish]

the second taser was probably over the top. not really going to help much.
but depending on how much booze the blokes put down his neck he might still be up for a ruck
arresting someone and getting them in a van when they don't want to go is always going to look bad on film there isn't a pleasant way way to get a prisoner in a van if they don't want to go.
coppers prefer tasers to batons or CS.

CS hits other people effects long lasting means the prisoner needs a change of clothing officers as well there car/van might be off the road till its aired out etc lots of hassle.
batons can kill pulling off the official places to strike on a suspect who won't stand still may require more skill than an officer actually has.

taser short effect the laser sight often intimidates suspects into compliance
less danger of physical damage than batons.

 

[belboid]

the second taser was probably over the top. not really going to help much.

the third taser apparently - the first one wasn't filmed. Neither was the copper kicking the blokes legs away from under him.

 

[badco]

Reported in the Metro as man punched in head by police...thats metro on the cunts list!

The second taser was defo ott

 

[goosegrease]

you mean you've found an instance of lazy journalism? Oh no! In fairness he may have been punched in the head by a pig off the camera.

This footage and the attention it's received highlights a more general distrust of Her Majesty's Police. Most people resent the way they act within their communities. Incedents in my town include a young girl being run over by a panda car, a near head high speed collision due to over taking on a blind spot and heavy handed treatment by offenders for petty low level crime while a small number of well known violent people within the community act with impunity.
We all know who's side the coppers are on when it comes to strikes and crowd control at demos.
The Police should be under direct control of the communities they police. If the people in a community are happy giving them tazers, battons and permit the use of them in the process of arrest then so be it. If from experiance that community change their minds about it then the practice should be stopped. I've found that most people just want the police to help them keep the streets safe to walk and step in where innocent people are put in danger by the actions of others. It's only reasonable that you would want them to turn to when ya house is robbed or whatever.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Clearly, the Notts police are trying to cover this up by referring themselves to the IPCC despite the lack of a complaint..........

That's far from clear to me. It seems the only thing they're trying to cover is their own arses, having been caught out by some dilligent citizen's decision to film them using excessive force.

 

[Cobbles]

That's far from clear to me. It seems the only thing they're trying to cover is their own arses, having been caught out by some dilligent citizen's decision to film them using excessive force.

So why didn't the drunken yobbo who assaulted a police officer and then resisted arrest and needed to be tasered feel that his demonic treatment at the hands of the Fascist police merit a complaint?

 

[SpookyFrank]

the second taser was probably over the top. not really going to help much.
but depending on how much booze the blokes put down his neck he might still be up for a ruck
arresting someone and getting them in a van when they don't want to go is always going to look bad on film there isn't a pleasant way way to get a prisoner in a van if they don't want to go.
coppers prefer tasers to batons or CS.

CS hits other people effects long lasting means the prisoner needs a change of clothing officers as well there car/van might be off the road till its aired out etc lots of hassle.
batons can kill pulling off the official places to strike on a suspect who won't stand still may require more skill than an officer actually has.

taser short effect the laser sight often intimidates suspects into compliance
less danger of physical damage than batons.

I'd rather be tasered than CS gassed I know that much. CS is evil and very dangerous stuff that has no place being used by anyone for any reason in a civilised society. It's been illegal to use it in warfare for over ten years and yet somehow it's fine to spray it directly into the eyeballs of civillians.