nottingham police taser & beat man

[Pickman's model]

suspects are becoming ever-more bold in resisting arrest.

and that's based on some evidence i hope

 

[editor]

The real issue isn't what hardware the police have, but why suspects are becoming ever-more bold in resisting arrest.

Yes. Indeed. In the old days, perps would quietly utter, "fair cop guv'nor, but society's to blame" as soon as they had their collar felt, and then meekly step into the Black Mariah, shaking their heads quietly

 

[belboid]

Here's the bit you appear to be missing

according to the beeb it's because

"A police officer was assaulted, the force claimed, and needed hospital treatment."

fucker clearly hit one of them, so what else could he expect??!!

 

[Azrael]

and that's based on some evidence i hope

Anecdotally from individual police officers, and press reports like this one. The desire of our police to tool up with more and more weaponry in recent years is some corroboration.

If they're wrong, there's still an argument to be made for Tasers, but it's less compelling.

Yes. Indeed. In the old days, perps would quietly utter, "fair cop guv'nor, but society's to blame" as soon as they had their collar felt, and then meekly step into the Black Mariah, shaking their heads quietly

This is about whether suspects are more willing to attack the police, not whether they want to re-enact an Ealing Comedy.

 

[Pickman's model]

firstly, that doesn't say anything about the nature of the violence: let's not forget the non-injuries suffered by the cops at kingsnorth. assault pc covers many levels of violence, and of course may not involve assault pc at all - the cops tried to fit up a mate of mine from school for assault pc.

secondly, assault pc is a different offence from resisting arrest. you've said above that the police face a growing level of violence from people resisting arrest - have you any evidence of *that*?

 

[editor]

Anecdotally from individual police officers, and press reports like this one. The desire of our police to tool up with more and more weaponry in recent years is some corroboration.

I suggest you immediately educate yourself by purchasing a copy of, "Hooligan: a history of respectable fears."

Still, things used to be so much safer for respectable folk in the past, didn't they?

The Whole City, My Lord, is alarm'd and uneasy. Wickedness has got such a Head, and the Robbers and Insolence of the Night are such that the citizens are no longer secure within their own Walls or safe even in passing their Streets, but are robbed, insulted, and abused, even at their own Doors … The citizens are oppressed by Rapin and Violence.
(Defoe, 1730)
http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/mod/resource/view.php?id=184696

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I thought that when tasers were introduced in this country they were only to be used in situations as an alternative to lethal force ie. when someone's life was in danger.

I had no idea they were authorised for "pain compliance". Does anyone know otherwise?

If you're going to give tasers to people with authoritarian personalities, they're inevitably going to be used electrocute people who are insufficiently submissive for the tastes of the authoritarian personality in question.

 

[Azrael]

I suggest you immediately educate yourself by purchasing a copy of, "Hooligan: a history of respectable fears."

I've flicked through it, and I also used to use the tactic you're using: find quote of an 18th century axe murder, or some old fogey in 1500 moaning about the young, and say "See, things have always been bad!".

Problem is, while fun, it doesn't prove a thing, since the argument isn't about the existence of certain crimes, but their extent.

secondly, assault pc is a different offence from resisting arrest. you've said above that the police face a growing level of violence from people resisting arrest - have you any evidence of *that*?

No, I don't have any evidence about the specific offense of resisting arrest. But assault and resisting arrest aren't mutually exclusive. So far as weapons go, you can lump them together, since both require the police to use force.

Let's say that resisting arrest hasn't risen for the sake of argument. In those cases where it occurs, what equipment should the police have?

 

[SpookyFrank]

This, shouted while the taser is being used to discharge 20000 volts into the victims prone body, enables the suspect to recive a clear warning that the police intended to use a taser against him, thus giving him sufficent time to desist his dastardly activites and afford the constables his every cooperation.

I'm fairly sure the cry is just to enable the other officers to desist with the beating for a moment or two so as not to get electrocuted themselves. From the video it doesn't seem like there's enough of a gap between the shouting and the zapping for the bloke on the floor to comply with anything.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, I don't have any evidence about the specific offense of resisting arrest.

thank you

 

[editor]

I've flicked through it,

I don't think you have, have you?

 

[Das Uberdog]

Well, it hasn't risen. There's no fuckin' way it's risen. That's total, utter bullshit.

And, from the assumption that someone is resisting arrest (a false premise) it's difficult to deny a 'law enforcement' officer any equipment they may claim helps them do the duty we have, by the presumption of the question itself, decided that they need to do. The real question should be "presuming cops are going to use weapons they are given inappropriately, where is the best balance between them being just about able to do what they need to do and also unable to waltz around firing electric volts into people".

On that basis, they should get rid of tasers. And CS. Even truncheons are usually over the top. Any semi-sadistic cop with some experience knows how to control your average drunk and disorderly with nothing more than some cuffs and arm-twisting. Never seen a baton used on a night out - brute force always seemed to be enough.

 

[Onket]

Harsh video.

I saw a copper punch someone on the floor like that in Leeds a few years back and he got a full on running boot in the head. The very least he deserved imo. Cunt.

 

[SpookyFrank]

.

 

[Azrael]

I don't think you have, have you?

Yes, I have, which is why I said I had.

Which bit are you referring to?

 

[Azrael]

thank you

Welcome. Any comment on the other parts of that post?

 

[JHE]

Spooky,

I recognise where this happened. The Royal Centre tram stop is clearly visible in the background. I don't know about any of the clubs there (I don't go to clubs) or their ownership, but I can't see that what you have to say about it is relevant to this incident with the police.

 

[Azrael]

Any semi-sadistic cop with some experience knows how to control your average drunk and disorderly with nothing more than some cuffs and arm-twisting. Never seen a baton used on a night out - brute force always seemed to be enough.

So when the knife-wielding suspect wields his knife, the officer should approach and attempt an arm-lock? What about when he's attacked and outnumbered? Ask them to wait in line?

If police are abusing their weapons, they should be prosecuted. Disarming them will give criminals a total monopoly on weapons, which is even worse than the current situation.

 

[Pickman's model]

Welcome. Any comment on the other parts of that post?

you don't need a weapon to assault a cop or to resist arrest.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Spooky,

I recognise where this happened. The Royal Centre tram stop is clearly visible in the background. I don't know about any of the clubs there (I don't go to clubs) or their ownership, but I can't see that what you have to say about it is relevant to this incident with the police.

You're quite right. Post already removed.

 

[JHE]

The vid shows a great deal of use of a tazer. I'm not sure it has much to do with whatever may have happened before (and which we don't see). I think this is all to do with the police wanting to subdue the man and get his compliance without much old-fashioned wresting and grunting and exposure to the blows of the man they're arresting. It's the choice of plods who are keen to protect themselves and their colleagues and, where poss, avoid a fight. The result for the arrested man is that he is horribly electrocuted, but then I suppose in the good old days he would have been more kicked and punched and battered all the way to the plod shop. Maybe you recover more quickly from the tazer. I don't know.

 

[Azrael]

you don't need a weapon to assault a cop or to resist arrest.

True. And if the police officer doesn't have a weapon, there's more chance of a drawn-out fight, with more risk of injury to both parties. It's in the interests of everyone that the arrest is effected with minimal violence: if a Taser achieves that, it's a useful tool. If it doesn't, it should be removed.

 

[Azrael]

The result for the arrested man is that he is horribly electrocuted, but then I suppose in the good old days he would have been more kicked and punched and battered all the way to the plod shop. Maybe you recover more quickly from the tazer. I don't know.

US police blogs claim you do. I don't know, having never been Tasered. I do know that US police have to be shot with the Taser before they're allowed to carry one, which is an excellent policy, and one I hope we've adopted.

 

[Pickman's model]

True. And if the police officer doesn't have a weapon, there's more chance of a drawn-out fight, with more risk of injury to both parties. It's in the interests of everyone that the arrest is effected with minimal violence: if a Taser achieves that, it's a useful tool. If it doesn't, it should be removed.

in that case it should be removed: you'll doubtless have observed the officer availing himself of the opportunity to whack the prostrate man three times in the upper body.

 

[JHE]

US police blogs claim you do. I don't know, having never been Tasered. I do know that US police have to be shot with the Taser before they're allowed to carry one, which is an excellent policy, and one I hope we've adopted.

I'll keep an eye out for the job advert:

Would you like to electrocute trainee police officers?
If so, ring blah blah blah​

I'd do it for a while maybe, but I think I'd get bored.

 

[Pickman's model]

be fun while it lasted.

 

[Azrael]

in that case it should be removed: you'll doubtless have observed the officer availing himself of the opportunity to whack the prostrate man three times in the upper body.

I believe that's a technique to force a suspect to loosen up his arms so he can be cuffed. You can hear the police ordering him to put his hands behind his back before he's punched.

How would you suggest he be forced to comply?

By the way, I'm not making an unreserved defence of the police. They look needlessly aggressive with the crowd, especially right at the end when a young man is pushed back. Their paramilitary garb is disturbing in general. These are cops, a world away from the "bobby on the beat" politicians love rattling on about. The police didn't used to feel the need to dress and act like this. Why do they now?

 

[Azrael]

I'll keep an eye out for the job advert:

Sadly it's usually police who electrocute other police. Mutual Tasering club.

 

[JHE]

Mutual Tasering club.

It's just a phaser they go through.

 

[Azrael]