North Korea Goes Nuclear!!

[greenfield]

I still don't get why China is being so open about condemning NK. The Dear Leader went on a visit in his special train the other week, which I assumed was to ask his Masters' permission. Why the condemnation now?

 

[Giles]

Given the disastrous state of NK's economy and farming, surely total sanctions would bring about collapse pretty damn quickly?

May as well get it over with......

They will mostly starve and freeze, and end up eating each other like happened in the mid-nineties apparently.

Giles..

 

[Jessiedog]

I still don't get why China is being so open about condemning NK. The Dear Leader went on a visit in his special train the other week, which I assumed was to ask his Masters' permission. Why the condemnation now?

In reality, China's leaders are probably doing the local equivalent of whooping noises and high-fives around the Oval Office - a wry grin and a raised eyebrow across the room at the politburo, I'd imagine.

China has been measured in every response to north Korea's shennanigans and always ends statements by insisting that both/all sides should show restraint. China will condemn the DPRK enough to satisfy the US and then claim impotence while retaining both inside knowledge of and massive influence over the country.

Quite the clever strategists it would seem. I would think they're rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of the US chewing on this one for a while.


I still don't see the DPRK as any real threat, not in the next 5 years, but this is a nice little sideshow, engineered to test the US' response/resolve at what is already a testing time for the US politically and militarily.


Interesting move, but I doubt that much will happen immediately.



Woof

 

[Giles]

I don't really know why the U.S. is especially worried.

It is most unlikely, even assuming ther NKs manage to make a small warhead and put it on a missile that actually works, that they would attack the Americans with a nuke.

Why would they do that, knowing that if they did, they would be committing national suicide?

Giles..

 

[jiggajagga]

If someone told you he was going to come to your house and beat you with a big stick I'm sure you would find a stick just as big to try and protect yourself.

Bushs' " Axis of Evil" speech ?

Whatever you sow Mr Bush so you will reap.
Lets hope your people and innocent people the world over don't have to good a harvest with your latest balls up!

What a TWAT!

 

[goldenecitrone]

I think everybody in the world should have a nuclear weapon. Then we'd all have to be really nice to each other.

 

[Giles]

If someone told you he was going to come to your house and beat you with a big stick I'm sure you would find a stick just as big to try and protect yourself.

Bushs' " Axis of Evil" speech ?

Whatever you sow Mr Bush so you will reap.
Lets hope your people and innocent people the world over don't have to good a harvest with your latest balls up!

What a TWAT!

Whatever Bush said, to pretend that America is somehow in the same league as Kim Jong-Il is ridiculous.

Still, America has plenty of food and money, and soon North Korea won't. So hopefully they will be fucked.

Giles..

 

[undercover]

From the BBC

On Tuesday the Security Council will continue to weigh up options for punitive action, and is considering a 13-point draft resolution proposed by the US, seeking targeted sanctions. The proposals include:
- Halting trade in material that could be used to make weapons of mass destruction
- Inspections of cargo going in and out of North Korea
- The ending of financial transactions used to support nuclear proliferation
- A ban on the import of luxury goods

Luxury goods? that means food for the people and hair moose for the Dear Leader.

Sanctions are a weapon of mass destruction in their own right.

 

[Giles]

From the BBC


Luxury goods? that means food for the people and hair moose for the Dear Leader.

Sanctions are a weapon of mass destruction in their own right.

But the sanctions are obviously the fault of the NK leadership - they must have known that doing this would bring sanctions, so whatever happens from now on is their own fault.

And if the rest of the world decide not to buy or sell things to them, that is the rest of the world's right, isn't it? No-one has to sell them anything if they don't want to. Then they can truly rely on their doctrine of "juche" (self-reliance), can't they?

Giles..

 

[TAE]

All countries do what they perceive as best serving their own interests - the US, China, NK, Russia, Pakistan, Switzerland and Sweeden.

Yes.

And the US just happens to be the one who creates the most waves because of its power.

It also happens to be ruled by a government which stated that the UN is irrelevant and can be ignored - hence the US has zero credibility.

 

[TAE]

From the BBC

So ... what treaty has NK broken?

 

[TeeJay]

Quite the clever strategists it would seem. I would think they're rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of the US chewing on this one for a while.

Do you think China would be happy if South Korea and Japan now decide that they need nuclear weapons themselves. I don't think so. Pretty shit "strategy" if it was part of the plan, winding up a regional arms race and making the whole area less stable and more dangerous. Why would they want to do that?

 

[ska invita]

...so this is what the last throws of Stalinism look like.

It's like finding a soldier in the jungle who thinks the war is still on.

The best way to remove the threat of Kim JOng is to try and bring N Korea into the fold, and open them up, as is happening with CHina.

The axis of evil comment, although not to blame for a long running nuclear programe is exactly the kind of stupidity that starts wars, not ends them. This whole situation could have been avoided with diplomacy over the last few years.

 

[TeeJay]

It also happens to be ruled by a government which stated that the UN is irrelevant and can be ignored - hence the US has zero credibility.

The US is the biggest contributor financially to the UN and its various agencies. This is hardly ignoring it.

The US pays about 22%, Japan 19%, Germany 8% and France and the UK about 6% each.

See here: http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/assessmt.htm

 

[undercover]

But the sanctions are obviously the fault of the NK leadership - they must have known that doing this would bring sanctions, so whatever happens from now on is their own fault.

And if the rest of the world decide not to buy or sell things to them, that is the rest of the world's right, isn't it? No-one has to sell them anything if they don't want to. Then they can truly rely on their doctrine of "juche" (self-reliance), can't they?

Giles..

I totally agree it's the NK leadeship that has caused this situation and the ensuing threats for sanctions, it just seems to me that publically/diplomatically saying that more sanctions are the way forward is a hugely empty threat to a country that has been living under self imposed sanctions (I mean imposed by the leadership over it's people) for some time.

as niksativa went on to say, surely opening them up, rather than further locking them away is the way forward.

 

[ska invita]

...it does ignore it rulings, including an outright pull out from Worl Court rulings. Remember the country who has broken the most UN resolutions is Isreal - the US refuses to enforce UN motion passed against Israel.

 

[ska invita]

as niksativa went on to say, surely opening them up, rather than further locking them away is the way forward.

..the same was true for Iraq - sanction killed 500,000 - as Condi Rice was quoted, that was a price worth paying - I disagree, the way to diffuse is to engage, and this has been the US policy on occasion (when they're not funding cotnras) - trade and interact as an offensive strategy.

What if for example the US started trading with N Korea, as it has done with CHina, with full disclosure to CHina that this is aprt of an attempt to reduce hostilities in the region?

 

[camouflage]

Pakistan has joined the group of nations condemning the nuclear test.

You couldn't fucking make it up...

Well the United States of "New Generation of Usable Nuclear Bunker Buster Bomb Bonanza" America and "Nuke That Atoll" France have also condemned the test. almost comedic.

Fuck em, if nukes are okay for somem, they're okay for all. Nobody has a right to critisize even a crazy-state like North Korea if they're not taking any steps to abolish they're own nukes. The basic logic here is "We can have nukes because we're us, and are good sound societies by our own judgement". Absolute bollocks.

 

[TeeJay]

...it just seems to me that publically/diplomatically saying that more sanctions are the way forward is a hugely empty threat to a country that has been living under self imposed sanctions (I mean imposed by the leadership over it's people) for some time...

I disagree: North Korea doesn't, as far as I know, have any oil of its own, which means that if it was cut off all its vehicles and much of its power would grind to a halt.

The North Korean regime maintains power because it controls what resources there are and because it has the power to run a large military machine. It is able to pay its soldiers and bureaucrats.

If the regime was unable to do these basic things and if it was seen to be unable to continue to run its military and party machine, not only would the people not be afraid of it, but more importantly the military and party itself would probably rebel - they would realise that the game was finally up and that things had to change.

Any person or group of people who did take over at that point would look largely to the outside world to reconnect their electricity supply and oil supplies, and to otherwise turn the taps back on. They would therefore be unlikely to simply take the same stance as the current regime.

A complete economic blockage would be a good chance to show that this is a viable alternative to military action in undermining regimes. It would be more or less up to the Chinese to decide to do this. Even just the credible threat would probably be enough to produce dramatic results.

 

[camouflage]

All countries do what they perceive as best serving their own interests - the US, China, NK, Russia, Pakistan, Switzerland and Sweeden.

And the US just happens to be the one who creates the most waves because of its power.

Its nothing but sour grapes.

Aboslutely, sour grapes from rest of world because North Korea has n.power now. Stop whinning biatchiz.

 

[Jonti]

How many nuclear test has the US, UK, France etc conducted in the last 30 years?

dunno about France, but as for USuk, is the answer none, the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty having been signed in 1963?

Linky

ETA: My whoopsie. I'm talking about atmospheric tests only

 

[Giles]

A complete trade ban would soon bring the regime to its knees - no oil or other fuels, and no food.

Problem would be getting the Chinese to go along with it, and enforce it.

Giles..

 

[zoltan]

In reality, China's leaders are probably doing the local equivalent of whooping noises and high-fives around the Oval Office - a wry grin and a raised eyebrow across the room at the politburo, I'd imagine.

China has been measured in every response to north Korea's shennanigans and always ends statements by insisting that both/all sides should show restraint. China will condemn the DPRK enough to satisfy the US and then claim impotence while retaining both inside knowledge of and massive influence over the country.

Quite the clever strategists it would seem. I would think they're rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of the US chewing on this one for a while.


I still don't see the DPRK as any real threat, not in the next 5 years, but this is a nice little sideshow, engineered to test the US' response/resolve at what is already a testing time for the US politically and militarily.


Interesting move, but I doubt that much will happen immediately.



Woof

Eggzactly!

The US needs China more than ever now & the PRC have given zero in return & not lost any face.

this isnt new of course - look at how the PRCs foreign policy has unfolded since WW2

The Dear leader still has their ear, whatever is alluded to in various carefully worded press announcements from the PRC.

 

[zoltan]

A complete trade ban would soon bring the regime to its knees - no oil or other fuels, and no food.

Problem would be getting the Chinese to go along with it, and enforce it.

Giles..

China - Irrespective of this opera, has been the main customer for the DPRKs exorts of raw marterials - development along the border in quite phenimenal on the PRC side of the river and throughout the DPRK, as you get closer to the Border, you see a steady stream of Rail trucks being loaded with minerals etc for the journey back north.

 

[DexterTCN]

As far as I can remember, the US had trade deals, nuclear deals and oil deals with NK.

After 911 Bush labelled NK part of the axis of evil and reneged on all the deals. The 'clean reactor' nuclear deal being scuttled was probably the most important one. This would have led directly to NK developing dirty fuel. The following (and current) threats of sanctions and attacks merely add to the NK need to protect itself in the same way as Pakistan et al.

Like China would want a million refugees on its doorstep if the regime collapses? I think not.

Let's remember how this tyranny came into place in the first place....the US-Korean War....to 'protect the US against commies'.

Of course...my memory may be hazy.

 

[TeeJay]

What a load of shite.

 

[Giles]

At the time of the Korean War, protecting just about anywhere against the spreading totalitarian communist threat seemed a good idea, and history shows that it was.

Look at the difference in living standards between NK and SK now!

Any country that has to actively prevent its own citizens from "escaping" is clearly doing something pretty badly wrong.

Giles..

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I still don't see the DPRK as any real threat, not in the next 5 years, but this is a nice little sideshow, engineered to test the US' response/resolve at what is already a testing time for the US politically and militarily.

What happens in Year Six?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Do you think China would be happy if South Korea and Japan now decide that they need nuclear weapons themselves. I don't think so. Pretty shit "strategy" if it was part of the plan, winding up a regional arms race and making the whole area less stable and more dangerous. Why would they want to do that?

...not to mention Taiwan.

 

[fela fan]

I think everybody in the world should have a nuclear weapon. Then we'd all have to be really nice to each other.

Yeah, that really worked between the US and the USSR for a few decades.