NO2ID gig this Friday (11th)

[moon23]

You've just constructed a circular argument there, moon23. You oppose ID cards, so you're prepared to work with the likes of UKIP. When questioned as to the value of working with UKIP, you state (as above) that you're working together against ID cards. It seems that you're not prepared to cut your argument free of the issue that is somewhat obsessing you atm and take a more considered view of what UKIP (and its like) represent. A view that has been more than ably expounded here by P2K and others.

While life, as you state, is undoubtedly complex (and it always strikes me as an act of condescension when someone states the blindingly obvious like that!), there are some simple truths that lie beneath the heaving, shifting complexity. One of those is that the poor are poor because they've been shafted by the rich. If you're not comfortable with that blindingly obvious fact and choose not to do anything about it, just admit it, rather than try to bury it under a clever-clever postulation of "complexities".

Sorry if it strikes you as an act of condescension, stating the world is complex. I could only assume that your simplistic black and white analysis of the world was a resulted from a lack of intellect, and that you therefore might need it restated. Perhaps it is also the form of some kind of indoctrination though?


Lets take one of your simple truths for instant:

“One of those is that the poor are poor because they've been shafted by the rich.”

Have you never met anyone who is lazy and unable to take self responsibly for their position, instead blaming society for their self-inflicted poverty? Or someone who has all their wealth robbed by another poor person? Is natural ability and talent also not a factor to wealth?


Yes my argument is circular, because there is no logical reason why a campaign against ID cards would have a position on whether or not X or Y was a class enemy. Your inability to tell the difference between a single issue campaign and your wider political agenda is startling.

 

[llantwit]

Have you never met anyone who is lazy and unable to take self responsibly for their position, instead blaming society for their self-inflicted poverty? Or someone who has all their wealth robbed by another poor person? Is natural ability and talent also not a factor to wealth?

Again, when faced with a point based on an understanding of systemic injustice you individualise the argument.
I really suggest you go away and read Marx's Capital (and then read it again, slowly). You need to understand that we're talking about classes and systemic injustice, not bad people and good people, or lazy people and active people, or poor burglars, ffs!

 

[penderyn2000]

Moon has done a fantastic job of making my case for me. NO2ID is causing supposed leftists to not only tolerate the right, but defend them. I find the promise of deporting a million immigrants fucking chilling - don't you? And if some workers agree with that, so what? Does Moon not understand that the way of thinking of the capitalist class is the dominant way of thinking in society? Millions of workers voted for Thatcher - does that mean Thatcher was in their interests?
Really Moon, you are way out of your depth, and the more you attempt to justify yourself, the more obvious it becomes. Do yourself a favour, go away and have a good long think about what you've been saying.

 

[moon23]

Moon has done a fantastic job of making my case for me. NO2ID is causing supposed leftists to not only tolerate the right, but defend them. I find the promise of deporting a million immigrants fucking chilling - don't you? And if some workers agree with that, so what? Does Moon not understand that the way of thinking of the capitalist class is the dominant way of thinking in society? Millions of workers voted for Thatcher - does that mean Thatcher was in their interests?
Really Moon, you are way out of your depth, and the more you attempt to justify yourself, the more obvious it becomes. Do yourself a favour, go away and have a good long think about what you've been saying.

So let me get this straight, you complain that NO2ID are undemocratic but if people vote for Thatcher then their wishes shouldn't be valued because they are voting in the interests of the capitalist class. Democracy insofar as their views aren’t dismissed as products of false consciousness.

I do not 'defend' UKIP anymore then I defend socialism. If socalist or people on the right oppose ID cards then I applaude their stance on that one issue.

 

[moon23]

Again, when faced with a point based on an understanding of systemic injustice you individualise the argument.
I really suggest you go away and read Marx's Capital (and then read it again, slowly). You need to understand that we're talking about classes and systemic injustice, not bad people and good people, or lazy people and active people, or poor burglars, ffs!

I'm not saying that we should only analysis things in terms of an individualist reductionist manner. Of course there are wider trends in society, and not all poverty is a result of people's character. It’s a typical ruse to blame individuals for their situation without realizing that there are other factors at play. Yet whoever denies that character is part of the parcel is dismissing a fundamental aspect of human nature. Some people no matter what opportunties are given to them fail to take them. Of course human nature has been shaped by past systematic trends and the foundations of our consciousness are the product of culture, which these days is largely manufactured. You can give people libraries but they need themselves to choose to pick up a book. Obviously someone without a library hasn’t got the choice. Blaming the capitalist TV producers for dulling minds, kind of misses the point that nothing is stopping people from rising up if they had the strength to do so.

However a strong individual always has the power to create for themselves to break out of the mould. Capital is an insightful read that helps us to think of society in systematic, and economic terms. Where Marxism fails however is in its inability to realize the power of individual creativity and consciousness to alter events and affect the economic and social organization. The sorts of inner strength that people like Nietzsche & later on existentialist are able to explain.

Maybe I’m less moralistic than you, but I don’t see things in terms of some polarized battle between classes. That’s not to say that I don’t fight to help other individuals achieve what they want. ID cards seek to bind people to states and databases to control and dominate with technology. NO2ID is a fairly successful campaign and has a wider appeal precisely because it is not tied to any other political agenda. Any attempt to tie it to any other agenda is a waste of time. Amusingly as a reformed socialist who used to sell papers and get shouted at by other less radical socalists i've had people come upto an NO2ID stall and say "Your not part of that lot are you" (whilst pointing at an SWP stall) before signing the petition.

penderyn2000's little outburst probably just gives NO2ID more credibility to the wider population, who will be pleased to learn it's not associated to a radical fringe. Oh and by the way it’s not NO2ID that is causing people to defend the right, but people like penderyn who gives the so called left a bad name by displaying an uncompromising dogmatic nature.

 

[llantwit]

You are the one giving us a bad name, moon. You're displaying some of the wooliest thinking I've ever come across and, despite your best efforts, abjectly failing to dress it up as an intelligent informed theory of society.
I think we've let this little debate run its course, haven't we? Feel free to take the last word.

 

[moon23]

You are the one giving us a bad name, moon. You're displaying some of the wooliest thinking I've ever come across and, despite your best efforts, abjectly failing to dress it up as an intelligent informed theory of society.
I think we've let this little debate run its course, haven't we? Feel free to take the last word.

Seeing as your able to only respond with an ad hominem parting shot, it seems it’s come to an end yes.