Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
maybe you scared him off
NO2ID gig this Friday (11th)
- Thread starter penderyn2000
- Start date
penderyn2000
unapologetic socialist
I've simply died of boredom from hearing No2ID supporters repeating the same party line. No, I did not attempt to disrupt a gig for Christ's sake! No, I do not want to be involved in campaigns which only involve Marxists! And as for the bollocks about No2ID democracy, the "democratic" No2ID campaign endorsed David Davis's election victory without reference to one member's opinion! Who decided this? If Stop the War had endorsed even one of its own officers in an election, STW activists would have been up in arms!
This summed up perfectly what is wrong with No2ID. By fixating on the one issue of ID cards, they are actively building support for assholes like Davis.
And if Moon can't tell the difference between emailing people (many of whom I knew) and posting details of their address, phone number and political activities on the web, please don't waste everybody's time with any more posts here, none of which I will be responding to. I refer people back to the many arguments which have already been exhausted at www.radicalsocialist.org.
This summed up perfectly what is wrong with No2ID. By fixating on the one issue of ID cards, they are actively building support for assholes like Davis.
And if Moon can't tell the difference between emailing people (many of whom I knew) and posting details of their address, phone number and political activities on the web, please don't waste everybody's time with any more posts here, none of which I will be responding to. I refer people back to the many arguments which have already been exhausted at www.radicalsocialist.org.
Actually as someone who was involved in organizing NO2ID's involvement in the Haltemprice and Howden by-election I can assure you that every effort was made not to endorse any candidate during the campaign, or comment on other civil liberties issues e.g. 42 days but only to campaign on ID cards. It wasn’t just NO2ID that was involved in the by-election, there were a whole load of civil liberty organizations.
Let’s face it the sad reality is the Tories are the best chance of getting ID cards scrapped. Personally I don't like, but you are not going to get them scrapped if the campaign against them fails to connect with people across society rather than an enclave of radical lefties handing out in a Cardiff pub. Politics is about being pragmatic as well as idealistic sometimes.
What you think is wrong with NO2ID is actually key to it being a hugely successful campaign. To quote our general secretary "This is no place for love of faction, decision-making by votes and conferences, unearned status, or any idea of 'accountability' as distinct from responsibility for getting things done"
As I said it works with de-centralized groups who choose their own decision making process to get things done e.g. organizing fund raising gigs rather than spending our time moaning about how other campaigns are run isn’t a good use of your time.
If you call yourself an activist then go and campaign against ID cards, Davis or the Freedom asscioation. Stop wasting your time sniping at people who are trying to protect your liberty and prevent you from having to carry and ID card. It’s clear your passionate about improving the world but are NO2ID really the enemy?
penderyn2000
unapologetic socialist
Quote from No2ID home page: "NO2ID congratulates David Davis on winning the Haltemprice and Howden by-election."
All local groups are overseen by an unelected local groups organiser who appoints No2ID activists to more powerful roles within the organisation.
I do call myself an activist. I've been an activist for over thirty years, slogging round doorsteps, holding meetings, manning stalls, leafleting, blocking roads, holding forth with a megaphone, fundraising - and also writing articles which raise the crucial issues: what Moon describes as sniping, but more enlightened people recognise as political debate.
I don't normally spend time blowing my own trumpet, but owing to the huge amount of personal disparagement to which I've been subjected by No2ID supporters, some further evidence of my practical commitment to the battle for civil liberties may be gleaned from this recent review of my latest novel in Books For Keeps:
The Last Free Cat
****
In a futuristic world controlled by the economic machinations of multinational corporations and state-led fear, the ownership of cats is strictly regulated on the basis that they spread the deadly strain of cat flu, HN51. But when teenager Jade finds an illegal or ‘free’ cat roaming in her garden, her determination to save the beautiful creature from extermination leads to a thrilling pursuit, in which Jade and her confidant, Kris, are hounded down as perpetrators of bio-terrorism.
This well-paced thriller works on a number of levels. Firstly, it is the story of the growth of regulation in society and a cynical analysis of the motivations that underlie this. Secondly, it is the story of Jade and the challenges she faces as she moves towards adulthood, including bereavement, concern over ‘fitting in’ with her peers and confusion regarding her relationship with Kris. Although she is in an extraordinary situation, these elements encourage identification with her character from ordinary readers. Most of all, however, this is a story of optimism and solidarity in the face of oppression. The beauty of the relationship between human and animal is touchingly conveyed and the book culminates in a sense of hope that is truly uplifting.
The overtly political and uncompromising nature of this book will not suit all readers, but it effectively explores the topical issue of encroaching state control in a way that others will find ripe for debate. RT
Finally, no-one who is calling for a vote for a Tory is protecting my civil liberties. Like every other activist I suffered from the consequences of the Criminal Justice Act and anti-union laws introduced by the last Tory government, and the Terrorism acts supported by them in opposition. We need to challenge all of them.
So thanks for the advice, Moon - now how about some critical thought of your own about this campaign?
All local groups are overseen by an unelected local groups organiser who appoints No2ID activists to more powerful roles within the organisation.
I do call myself an activist. I've been an activist for over thirty years, slogging round doorsteps, holding meetings, manning stalls, leafleting, blocking roads, holding forth with a megaphone, fundraising - and also writing articles which raise the crucial issues: what Moon describes as sniping, but more enlightened people recognise as political debate.
I don't normally spend time blowing my own trumpet, but owing to the huge amount of personal disparagement to which I've been subjected by No2ID supporters, some further evidence of my practical commitment to the battle for civil liberties may be gleaned from this recent review of my latest novel in Books For Keeps:
The Last Free Cat
****
In a futuristic world controlled by the economic machinations of multinational corporations and state-led fear, the ownership of cats is strictly regulated on the basis that they spread the deadly strain of cat flu, HN51. But when teenager Jade finds an illegal or ‘free’ cat roaming in her garden, her determination to save the beautiful creature from extermination leads to a thrilling pursuit, in which Jade and her confidant, Kris, are hounded down as perpetrators of bio-terrorism.
This well-paced thriller works on a number of levels. Firstly, it is the story of the growth of regulation in society and a cynical analysis of the motivations that underlie this. Secondly, it is the story of Jade and the challenges she faces as she moves towards adulthood, including bereavement, concern over ‘fitting in’ with her peers and confusion regarding her relationship with Kris. Although she is in an extraordinary situation, these elements encourage identification with her character from ordinary readers. Most of all, however, this is a story of optimism and solidarity in the face of oppression. The beauty of the relationship between human and animal is touchingly conveyed and the book culminates in a sense of hope that is truly uplifting.
The overtly political and uncompromising nature of this book will not suit all readers, but it effectively explores the topical issue of encroaching state control in a way that others will find ripe for debate. RT
Finally, no-one who is calling for a vote for a Tory is protecting my civil liberties. Like every other activist I suffered from the consequences of the Criminal Justice Act and anti-union laws introduced by the last Tory government, and the Terrorism acts supported by them in opposition. We need to challenge all of them.
So thanks for the advice, Moon - now how about some critical thought of your own about this campaign?
I'm not questioning your commitment, just saying you could find something more meaningful to grind you axe at? If it's a political debate your after then perhaps you would care to open up your blog to receiving comments rather than accusing NO2ID supporters of spreading 'misinformation' then closing it down in a strop? Going around contacting people playing at a benifet gig like this just doesn't seem the right way to go about things.
A more reasonble way of voicing your concerns might have been to attend a NO2ID meeting and talk about them or join the campaign and create a proposal at the AGM. That might of actualy achived what you wanted a bit more. Perhaps you should self-reflect on why so many people are pissed off with you?
Of course NO2ID isn't a perfect organization (what organization is), yet it's an organization run almost entirley by volunteers who doing what they think is best to stop ID cards and the Database state.
"NO2ID congratulates David Davis on winning the Haltemprice and Howden by-election."
Yes NO2ID would have congratulated any of the other anti-ID card candidates. Congratulating someone after an election is not the same as endorsing their campaign. NO2ID is non-partisan and has not ever, and will not ever support or endorse anyone in a parliamentary election. You need to get your facts straight.
All local groups are overseen by an unelected local groups organizer who appoints No2ID activists to more powerful roles within the organization.
Wrong there is a local groups organizer who is appointed as a member of voluntary staff by the National coordinator who is in turn democratically elected by members of NO2ID. I can't think of many political campaigns that hold elections to appoint every single member of staff.
The Local group coordinator provides support for local groups which are separate organizations in their own right and not part of NO2ID. In no way do they oversea groups, or have any power to decide what roles activist take within the local groups. It is possible for instance to belong to Brighton NO2ID and not NO2ID. Different local groups have different formations which have evolved organically at a grass roots level. Some are small informal groups where no formal democractic structure is required, some work like anarchist meetings where noone is in charge, others are larger and have a more formal democratic committee structure and written constitution.
Seeing as i've been working on creating democractic constituions for local groups that wish them (which incidently I think don't lead to true democracy) I take exception to your claims that NO2ID is not democractic.
A more reasonble way of voicing your concerns might have been to attend a NO2ID meeting and talk about them or join the campaign and create a proposal at the AGM. That might of actualy achived what you wanted a bit more. Perhaps you should self-reflect on why so many people are pissed off with you?
Of course NO2ID isn't a perfect organization (what organization is), yet it's an organization run almost entirley by volunteers who doing what they think is best to stop ID cards and the Database state.
"NO2ID congratulates David Davis on winning the Haltemprice and Howden by-election."
Yes NO2ID would have congratulated any of the other anti-ID card candidates. Congratulating someone after an election is not the same as endorsing their campaign. NO2ID is non-partisan and has not ever, and will not ever support or endorse anyone in a parliamentary election. You need to get your facts straight.
All local groups are overseen by an unelected local groups organizer who appoints No2ID activists to more powerful roles within the organization.
Wrong there is a local groups organizer who is appointed as a member of voluntary staff by the National coordinator who is in turn democratically elected by members of NO2ID. I can't think of many political campaigns that hold elections to appoint every single member of staff.
The Local group coordinator provides support for local groups which are separate organizations in their own right and not part of NO2ID. In no way do they oversea groups, or have any power to decide what roles activist take within the local groups. It is possible for instance to belong to Brighton NO2ID and not NO2ID. Different local groups have different formations which have evolved organically at a grass roots level. Some are small informal groups where no formal democractic structure is required, some work like anarchist meetings where noone is in charge, others are larger and have a more formal democratic committee structure and written constitution.
Seeing as i've been working on creating democractic constituions for local groups that wish them (which incidently I think don't lead to true democracy) I take exception to your claims that NO2ID is not democractic.
penderyn2000
unapologetic socialist
Not only does this guy have unique insight into my own mind (eg that after a whole month of repetition of argument and insult at www.radicalsocialist.org, the comments were closed 'in a strop') but also into the minds of the organisers of No2ID who congratulated David Davis but would also have apparently congratulated other candidates!
Really, Moon, if you can't see how undemocratic that Davis statement was, you really are blinded by loyalty: for the same reason all the people who have attacked me (not that many really, and all No2ID supporters) have felt obliged to defend the likes of UKIP and deny just how right wing they are, thus justifying the very point I've been making.
Thanks for the further advice as to how to achieve more in politics - do you realise just how patronising you are? However, the next step for me will be to discuss it within my group and then abide by the collective decision we make. I shall certainly argue that we need to carry on the fight for civil liberties in other arenas than NO2ID. Maybe some of the other socialists on here could get off the fence and agree or disagree?
Really, Moon, if you can't see how undemocratic that Davis statement was, you really are blinded by loyalty: for the same reason all the people who have attacked me (not that many really, and all No2ID supporters) have felt obliged to defend the likes of UKIP and deny just how right wing they are, thus justifying the very point I've been making.
Thanks for the further advice as to how to achieve more in politics - do you realise just how patronising you are? However, the next step for me will be to discuss it within my group and then abide by the collective decision we make. I shall certainly argue that we need to carry on the fight for civil liberties in other arenas than NO2ID. Maybe some of the other socialists on here could get off the fence and agree or disagree?
Your right I don't have an insight into your mind, so sorry if you didn't close it in a strop, it just seemed that way to me. I don't understand why you didn't allow the thread to continue if you were passionate about debate.
However I do know the thinking behind the Davis statement, and most people are sensible enough to recognize that it isn't anything party political but a statement of thanks to a politician that has taken a public stance on ID cards. Not every statement made by a campaign is democratically endorsed, Do Greenpeace for instant consult all their memembers before making a press release or statement on their website?
If you don't like NO2ID then maybe form a Defy ID group or simply campaign against ID cards with your own socialist groups. I know it's something minority socialist parites are good at but try to resist the urge to cause yet another split.
Col_Buendia
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Pure genius! Personal promotion seamlessly woven into angsty political debate
I love it. Personally I thought you should have quoted thebookbag.co.uk review - it was much more fulsome in its praise:So, any chance of a signed copy P2000?
Fair comment. Although I'd imagine many people didn't rush to your aid because they were concerned by the accusation of you trying to scupper the gig by ringing round the bands and trying to persuade them not to play.
I came to this late as I was away for most of the debate, and didn't really keep up, but I've read the thread now and I'm with you politically on this. There's no point working with class enemies, and some of the right-wing libertarians who are against ID cards are nothing but that. To argue otherwise is politically naive.
Fuck me, Churchill was even against ID cards (at some stages of his career). Should we be standing shoulder to shoulder with his political heirs?
Can't be arsed arguing with the No2ID people on here, particularly, though. Especially given the bonkers pasting you seem to have got for trying to argue with them. Sorry not to give support earlier.
Once again people are wrongly assuming that welcoming someone's anti-ID card message and supporting their stance on a single issue is the same as standing shoulder to shoulder with them. In no possible way could NO2ID be said to be standing shoulder to shoulder with anyone, seeing as it is not a political party but a single issue campaign group. It seems you object to the whole notion of single issue campaigns and would prefer everyone to be enaged in your own political agenda. Sorry but not everyone thinks in the same way, and there are lot's of different reaons for opposing ID cards. If you can't work with others who you disagree with on a shared problem then your not really very good socialists.
How do you honestly expect to further progressive politics if you are unprepared to engage with, understand and ultimately compromise with people who disagree with your political stance? If you stereotype people as class enemies then you will only further entrench their opposition to your ideas.
No wonder the socialist left is so isolated on the fringe of politics in this country.
penderyn2000
unapologetic socialist
Thanks, Llantwit, but again can I clarify that accusation was totally untrue!
What is true is that I was unaware of what stone I was turning in drawing attention to the right wing links on the NO2ID website. The guy who accused me of being a state agent on the NO2ID forum, eg, is also a regular poster on www.democracyforum.co.uk where he and others engage in friendly banter with the BNP on the "non-racist" immigration discussion zone etc. The far right have pitched themselves wholesale into the civil rights issue (the BNP have their own dedicated site, civilliberty.org.uk) while the left have shown scant interest in what is going on. The quotes from NO2ID leaders about not needing conferences etc, let's get on with the action, is of course classic bureaucratspeak dedicated to ensuring that those in charge of NO2ID stay there. They know that a fully functioning democracy in NO2ID will mean the left groups taking over and a major bust-up with the right. NO2ID, as I have said, has been hamstrung by this and hence has never held a major national event.
It is unfortunate that several of those sympathetic to the involvement of right wing libertarians have been left libertarians. This is not so surprising if your view of the state is as an abstracted authority rather than the instrument of control by the capitalist class.
We do need an alternative IMO, but one which works alongside NO2ID activists and attempts to win them to a class perspective on the civil liberties issue.
As for the self-promotion, I plead guilty as charged - except I wrote that book as a weapon in the class war, and would happily not make a penny out of it if it converts 10,000 teenagers to an anti-capitalist worldview. Signed copies are available to fully paid-up residents of a certain Cardiff inner-city area, so if that applies to you, pop round any time!
What is true is that I was unaware of what stone I was turning in drawing attention to the right wing links on the NO2ID website. The guy who accused me of being a state agent on the NO2ID forum, eg, is also a regular poster on www.democracyforum.co.uk where he and others engage in friendly banter with the BNP on the "non-racist" immigration discussion zone etc. The far right have pitched themselves wholesale into the civil rights issue (the BNP have their own dedicated site, civilliberty.org.uk) while the left have shown scant interest in what is going on. The quotes from NO2ID leaders about not needing conferences etc, let's get on with the action, is of course classic bureaucratspeak dedicated to ensuring that those in charge of NO2ID stay there. They know that a fully functioning democracy in NO2ID will mean the left groups taking over and a major bust-up with the right. NO2ID, as I have said, has been hamstrung by this and hence has never held a major national event.
It is unfortunate that several of those sympathetic to the involvement of right wing libertarians have been left libertarians. This is not so surprising if your view of the state is as an abstracted authority rather than the instrument of control by the capitalist class.
We do need an alternative IMO, but one which works alongside NO2ID activists and attempts to win them to a class perspective on the civil liberties issue.
As for the self-promotion, I plead guilty as charged - except I wrote that book as a weapon in the class war, and would happily not make a penny out of it if it converts 10,000 teenagers to an anti-capitalist worldview. Signed copies are available to fully paid-up residents of a certain Cardiff inner-city area, so if that applies to you, pop round any time!
penderyn2000
unapologetic socialist
Just to reply to Moon's point which I hadn't read - very significant you've assumed Llantwit is a socialist because he agrees with me.
All these points have been discussed before on www.radicalsocialist.org, which is why the comments are closed there. As socialists, PR continually work in campaigns and united fronts with people who are not socialists but share a limited common objective. So, for example, we would have no problem with working with you against ID cards. However, we have to draw a distinction when it comes to organised right-wing groups whose agendas are profoundly pro-capitalist and anti-working class. They are not people who simply disagree with us, they are dedicated to opposing all we stand for. And (once again!) they are the absolute enemies of basic civil liberties such as the right to strike, the right to protest, freedom of movement - and that's before we even get on to the subject of minorities and immigration!
All these points have been discussed before on www.radicalsocialist.org, which is why the comments are closed there. As socialists, PR continually work in campaigns and united fronts with people who are not socialists but share a limited common objective. So, for example, we would have no problem with working with you against ID cards. However, we have to draw a distinction when it comes to organised right-wing groups whose agendas are profoundly pro-capitalist and anti-working class. They are not people who simply disagree with us, they are dedicated to opposing all we stand for. And (once again!) they are the absolute enemies of basic civil liberties such as the right to strike, the right to protest, freedom of movement - and that's before we even get on to the subject of minorities and immigration!
I'm not saying No2ID is standing shoulder to shoulder. I'm just saying that I (me, moi, ich) don't want to work with people who can reasonable be described as class enemies politically. So don't get your knickers in a twist.
Work with whoever you want to, and get on with it. If you want to see my decisions as misguided, sectarian, whatever, then go ahead dude. All power to you.
I'm more than happy to engage with anyone about my politics and the issues I care about - but I'm not really happy to work or campaign alongside people who I deem class enemies. It's not a 'stereotype', mate... I'm kind of lazily using the term to refer to people whose politics are diametrically opposed to my own on ceretain fundamental issues (like land ownership, ownership of the means of production, democracy, liberty, etc).
Like Penderyn I'm more than happy to work with other people from various walks of political life and have done so many times in the past, not that I'm about to give you my activist CV, though.... That I draw the line at tories, fash, and shady right-wing groups, and have certain clear ideas about the internal democracy of campaign groups hardly means I'm ' unprepared to engage with, understand and ultimately compromise with people who disagree with your political stance', as you suggest.
But go ahead and do what you feel, moon... I'm not trying to tell you what to do, or making silly sweeping statements about your politics or personality based on very little knowledge of who you are or what you've done in the past. So stop doing it to me.
Sure, I believe you, of course! But it's a damaging and personally spiteful accusation to make. I'd be well pissed off if it was me.
Dic Penderyn
Newport Civic Pride!
The fact of the matter is ID cards already exist, Asylum Seekers already have them and have since 2002, migrant workers and foreign students will have them soon. That NO2ID hasn't been rushing to defend the rights of asylum seekers seems due to their desire to keep on board those who harbour racist connotations about the free movement of people.
UKIP et al are my class enemy, that's not stereotyping it's just being realistic about who would make life worse for me and people in the same economic position in society as me. More than that anyone who opposes the principle of free migration is, quite frankly, an enemy of freedom. If you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.
Very few right wing Libertarians exist in this country, how anyone can claim to be a Libertarian yet demand harsher asylum laws (like the UK Libertarian Party does) is totally beyond me. I'd be quite happy to work with Libertarians from the pro-capitalist camp on a civil liberties issue such as border controls, asylum, ID cards etc but the racist little englanders who pose as Libertarians to hide their bigotry can fuck right off.
All that said I've met and am friendly with people involved in the Cardiff NO2ID group and wish they luck in promoting the issue locally, they don't come from the same political position as me, and that's fine, these arguments were had about the NO2ID campaign years ago and was a reason why anarchists like me got involved in things like DEFY-ID. No Borders South Wales have started to work on the ID cards issue, and will be making noises about it in the future.
UKIP et al are my class enemy, that's not stereotyping it's just being realistic about who would make life worse for me and people in the same economic position in society as me. More than that anyone who opposes the principle of free migration is, quite frankly, an enemy of freedom. If you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.
Very few right wing Libertarians exist in this country, how anyone can claim to be a Libertarian yet demand harsher asylum laws (like the UK Libertarian Party does) is totally beyond me. I'd be quite happy to work with Libertarians from the pro-capitalist camp on a civil liberties issue such as border controls, asylum, ID cards etc but the racist little englanders who pose as Libertarians to hide their bigotry can fuck right off.
All that said I've met and am friendly with people involved in the Cardiff NO2ID group and wish they luck in promoting the issue locally, they don't come from the same political position as me, and that's fine, these arguments were had about the NO2ID campaign years ago and was a reason why anarchists like me got involved in things like DEFY-ID. No Borders South Wales have started to work on the ID cards issue, and will be making noises about it in the future.
NO2ID Is the most political diverse campaign I have ever been involved in, and I’m sure it’s just as challenging for Tories, Christians to work with an anarchist like myself as it is for me to work with them. What unites most supporters and members of the campaign is a shared understanding that ID cards are bad things. Personally I’m glad that I took the time to talk and listen to people who I otherwise might have dismissed for simply belonging to a party like UKIP. I think things like our civil liberties are so important that party politics shouldn’t come into it.
I understand your position and in a way I respect that you have a set of principles that prevent you from working with certain people even if I disagree with such a principle strongly.
NO2ID has regular contact with quite a few No Borders groups and is accutle aware of the governemnt's plans to go after vulnerable groups first. It has a legal team that is looking into the possibilty of launching action to defend the rights of foreign students. Indivdual local groups within NO2ID have a large degree of autonomy so perhaps it's just the Cardfiff group that have lead to such a bad rep to having links with the right? I don't know that group so I couldn't comment. Anyway my experince of NO2ID is very different from that.
I don't think that capitalism is always the key to whether a state is authoritarian or not because there are plenty of authoritarian communist states.
If Defy-ID was a more active then that would be no bad thing in my view.
Dic Penderyn
Newport Civic Pride!
You'll find no argument on that with me.
I find myself working with members of authoritarian left on issues of common ground, and as I have just stated I would work with the Libertarian right (if they actually existed in any tangible form in the UK) on issues of common ground.
I draw the line at the authoritarian right however.
Well I agree with you on that.
Col_Buendia
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Moon, you seem to have a fairly generous notion of how "all-inclusive" society is... you seem not to have grasped the nettle that there are elements in society whose interests are fundamentally opposed to the interests of the greater number of that society. Any redistribution of this world's resources in anything like a more just fashion will inevitably generate conflict - it beggars belief that this should need stating. Hence, regardless of however remote that possibility might be, of a just redistribution of our shared resources, in this particular country at this particular time, the simple fact remains that there are people out there who are enjoying themselves enormously at our expense.
Calling them class enemies is shorthand. Short, but effective, and accurate. Refusing to have anything to do with them is common sense. Hoping that we can all get along, and refusing to recognise the conflict that lies at the heart of contemporary society is allowing yourself to be stitched up by its present rulers.
"Engaging" with those who are out to fuck me over is not what interests me... not unless you mean engage them on the sharp end of a pitchfork, or some such.
Moon, you seem to have a fairly generous notion of how "all-inclusive" society is... you seem not to have grasped the nettle that there are elements in society whose interests are fundamentally opposed to the interests of the greater number of that society. Any redistribution of this world's resources in anything like a more just fashion will inevitably generate conflict - it beggars belief that this should need stating. Hence, regardless of however remote that possibility might be, of a just redistribution of our shared resources, in this particular country at this particular time, the simple fact remains that there are people out there who are enjoying themselves enormously at our expense.
Calling them class enemies is shorthand. Short, but effective, and accurate. Refusing to have anything to do with them is common sense. Hoping that we can all get along, and refusing to recognise the conflict that lies at the heart of contemporary society is allowing yourself to be stitched up by its present rulers.
"Engaging" with those who are out to fuck me over is not what interests me... not unless you mean engage them on the sharp end of a pitchfork, or some such.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't be challenged; just that most of the time it's more effective (if less exciting) to challenge people through dialogue and compromise than pitchforks. Of course there will be some people who never listen or learn.
Take for instant you meet a racist. If you shout at them and call them a racist then they will simply hide their real views whilst in public whereas the racist mindset is not actually challenged. We have all been in Taxi’s where the driver is mouthing off. Rather than having a go at them I try and convince them that the answer to crime is to do with a break down in education and society. Perhaps they will leave thinking that better Education rather than punishment is a solution. If you spent time talking to someone and addressing their fears about security and desire to protect themselves and their family then you might actually lead them to a more enlightened understanding.
For instant I know someone who has stood as UKIP candidate in local elections. I’m able to discuss things with them over a beer then and then overtime persuade them that it’s economic exploitation rather than the European parliament which is the real problem. If I simply told him to get lost then that would only entrench his views. Many of my friends think I’m nuts for even talking to them.
I think it’s similar with NO2ID, it’s bringing a lot of Tories to a deeper understanding of civil liberties in this country. Rather than condemning NO2ID activists for engaging with the right, you should be praising them for reaching out and taking the arguments out into the wider community.
Col_Buendia
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And what has your conversation achieved with this person? Do you not find that those who are already politically active usually are so as a result of having considered the issues and come to their own conclusions? Therefore they are the least amenable to a general chat about the "state of things". Knee-jerk racists usually (ime) haven't thought about things very much, and therefore are much more vulnerable to a piercing blast of logic.
It'd be interesting to know whether the right-wing activists that you are consorting with are going back to their peer group with stories of the naive anarchists that they have pulled in behind them...
It depends on the extent to which they have thought about things and what information they have based their thinking on. Rationale people who are not closed minded, and think about things a little bit are probably more open to a good argument than those whose opinions are not based on anything rationale (but rather received wisdom, or the Daily mail). They have shown an ability to understand some of the more complex nuances involved in a progressive political position.
If you want to think in terms of crude psychological types of people, then I agree that there is a proportion of political active people who are closed minded to ideas that don’t fit within their political dogma or truth as they call it. For instant those who the ‘left’ that are so closed minded they won’t have anything to do with the right, instead demonizing them and forgetting they are people with dreams, hopes and fears. Many of whom are products of a system and just want to do what they think. They are not inherently bad.
It would be interesting to know for sure what this person thought of me. In terms of what has been gained from it, I have a better understanding of what leads people to belong to a party like UKIP. I’m also working with him to put a stop to ID cards.
This where you're mis-reading the left-critique that Col and I have been putting forward, I think. It's not about 'not having anything to do with the right' as people. I'd be more than happy to go for a pint, chew the fact, even have political debates aplenty with rightists. As the cliche goes, some of my oldest friends are right-wingers.
We aren't about somehow denying they're people, either. Of course they have dreams and hopes and shit like that. They might not even be inherently bad people (but many are).
The point we're making is about certain irriducible structural differences that get in the way of working politically with these people (the ones I called class enemies in quite a strident way earlier in the debate).
In many cases (capitalist bosses, for example) their wealth, for instance, is a direct result of the exploitation of others. They have deeply entrenched interests in not radically changing the way wealth and resources are distributed in society. We aren't saying don't work with these people because they're bad people, or evil, etc. In large part, we're saying don't work with them because our (material, economic, class) interests are diametrically opposed. I'm surprised somebody calling themselves an anarchist hasn't got a grasp of basic class politics like that, to be honest.
This is the crux of the matter, I don't think that class politics is the be all and end all of politics. It appears to me that you are seeing things in terms of a dialect between material, economic and class interests, this tends to force people into a dichotomy of class enemies and friends. Although when you stop and think I’m sure you are perfectly aware this is a simplification and life is more complex.
I'm saying yes class (and broadly Marxist economic critique) is an important factor, as material and economic power can be used to exploit and dominate others which go against my principle of furthering individualistic freedom.
However I don’t like a narrow reading of what some call classical Marxism and think there are other factors at play (psychological, religious, and ideological), where control and domination can occur (along the lines of the Frankfurt school). For instance within a hierarchy steeped in entrenched cultural practices, or within a formalized local part system, that although having democratic objectives, by nature of it’s formalized system is open to abuse by those with a knowledge of how the system works. An example of the later may be the way in which the first past the post is manipulated by political parties.
It is possible to imagine a collectivist anarchist community that although free from class conflict people are oppressed through social pressure or traditions of that community. The totem and taboos, mythologies and symbological systems are partly interlinked yet also distinct from materialistic relationships and conflicts. ID cards for instance are just as much a threat from the authoritarian left as the right and have little to do with materialistic class conflict (hence why a wide variety of people oppose them).
Of course material conflict is often linked to other spheres e.g. religious. For instance I think the ideological reaction of Al-Qaeda has a lot to do with Western material exploitation of the middle-east. However the conflict is realized on a psychological level by many of the protagonists. You therefore need to take into account the different levels on which people operate.
I therefore think it’s perfectly possible to work politically with someone I disagree in terms of class conflict or immigration but share views with on other issues that may not directly be related to class conflict, in the same way in which a boss/worker relationship might be. ID cards are one particular phenomenon that I intend to put a stop to. To that ends I am 100% focused and committed and therefore very pleased that NO2ID has got such a wide base of support. I understand why some people may hate this notion of a single issue campaign, but I think it's a pragmatic and direct way to actually inact change.
As an Anarchist I have little time of camps and party loyalties.
penderyn2000
unapologetic socialist
UKIP may involve individuals, but UKIP is a party and has party positions which represent particular class interests - most decidedly not the interests of the working class, and certainly not the ethnic minorities within it.
Why not look at the actual policies UKIP stands for?
Stopping all immigration for 5 years. Tripling the numbers deported; 'up to a million'. Then only allowing people in who amongst other things speak fluent English.
Scrapping the human rights act.
Increased spending on the armed forces.
Defending the exorbitant wages of top executives.
Bringing back selective education and grammar schools.
Cutting corporation tax; scrapping inheritance tax; opposition to green taxes.
In short, UKIP is a party for business, and like the BNP are primarily rooted in the urban and rural small business class - the petit bourgeoisie. And, as every Marxist and many anarchists know, that class is of necessity parasitical on workers, which it must exploit in order to profit. That is why we regard them as a poison to be defeated at all costs, not sucked up by the unelected leaders of NO2ID who will be attending their conference and handing them a credibility they do not deserve.
Why not look at the actual policies UKIP stands for?
Stopping all immigration for 5 years. Tripling the numbers deported; 'up to a million'. Then only allowing people in who amongst other things speak fluent English.
Scrapping the human rights act.
Increased spending on the armed forces.
Defending the exorbitant wages of top executives.
Bringing back selective education and grammar schools.
Cutting corporation tax; scrapping inheritance tax; opposition to green taxes.
In short, UKIP is a party for business, and like the BNP are primarily rooted in the urban and rural small business class - the petit bourgeoisie. And, as every Marxist and many anarchists know, that class is of necessity parasitical on workers, which it must exploit in order to profit. That is why we regard them as a poison to be defeated at all costs, not sucked up by the unelected leaders of NO2ID who will be attending their conference and handing them a credibility they do not deserve.
Col_Buendia
sort code
You've just constructed a circular argument there, moon23. You oppose ID cards, so you're prepared to work with the likes of UKIP. When questioned as to the value of working with UKIP, you state (as above) that you're working together against ID cards. It seems that you're not prepared to cut your argument free of the issue that is somewhat obsessing you atm and take a more considered view of what UKIP (and its like) represent. A view that has been more than ably expounded here by P2K and others.
While life, as you state, is undoubtedly complex (and it always strikes me as an act of condescension when someone states the blindingly obvious like that!), there are some simple truths that lie beneath the heaving, shifting complexity. One of those is that the poor are poor because they've been shafted by the rich. If you're not comfortable with that blindingly obvious fact and choose not to do anything about it, just admit it, rather than try to bury it under a clever-clever postulation of "complexities".
I'm not going to get into an argument about whether or not UKIP is in the interests of the working classes, based on your cherry picked list of their policies. Sadly although you must fantasize about it you are not the spokesperson for the entire working class, and I suspect if you ran a poll many of the working class would share UKIP's views on immigration.
Regardless of UKIP's views on other things they are against ID cards. I hardly think a NO2ID activist attending their conference gives them that much credibilty. In fact every major party other than Labour are opposed to ID cards, so it hardly sets them out from the pack.
NO2ID opposes ID cards, UKIP oppose ID cards. Simple
