No2EU - Yes to Democracy (EU Election Platform of TUists and Left Parties)

[Udo Erasmus]

Precisely.

The whole thing is just bizarrely strategically inept.

I expected it from Crow and the CPB - I'm somewhat more surprised at the Socialist Party.

Matt

I think the SP are critical of it in many respects, but think that a major trade union sponsoring candidates is a postive development & therefore have climbed onboard (thereby muting their criticisms)

Which it certainly is, I thought that the development was quite positive when I first heard about it, but the whole 'No to EU - Yes to Democracy' slant, and the platform of the organisation leave me cold. To be honest, many people seeing it on the ballot paper might mistakenly assume it is a UKIP type thing, it would have been great for the RMT to have stood candidates under a slogan like 'We won't pay for THEIR crisis - Bailout Workers not Banks' or something like that and just had a simple left populist programme like renationalise banks, water, electricity, railways etc., free education for all, tax the rich etc. rebuild the welfare state. T

That would have been a far more positive electoral intervention and one that I would feel inspired to sell to friends and family.

 

[Nigel]

Well can you put a reference where you took it from

It was an E-mail sent to me.
Sorrry I thought you were just being sarcastic!

 

[dennisr]

I think the SP are critical of it in many respects, but think that a major trade union sponsoring candidates is a postive development & therefore have climbed onboard (thereby muting their criticisms)

Indeed - and I would agree with your general comments on slogans etc BUT how would it mute our criticisms - did our many years involvement in the early SAs mute out criticisms then??

We have already made very clear opposition to excluding others on the left. Criticism of the nature of candidates - how they are decided - a lack of a democratic and accountable structure will all need to be bought out clearly as the this initial electoral starting point develops. At the same time - as you say the development of a trade union opening up the possibility of an independent voice is an important one so the manner in which we raise that criticism in the eyes of the RMT membership etc is also important.

The same criticisms that were made of the founding of Respect apply (can't remember you being so 'cold' then...) - with the very important difference of this being a left trade union initiative.

Why No 2 EU: http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/campaign/Election_campaigns/No2EU/7162

Rail union launches euro election challenge: http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/7077
"This is a temporary coalition for the European elections only. Its platform concentrates on opposition to the European Union (EU) constitution (now re-packaged as the Lisbon treaty) - which enshrines free market economics into EU law - the EU's pro-privatisation directives, and the anti-trade union and 'social dumping' rulings of the European Court of Justice. But still, it represents another step towards rebuilding working class political representation, absent from Britain since the 1990s' transformation of the Labour Party into the completely capitalist New Labour."

 

[Groucho]

Civil service unions are legally prohibited from backing political parties. However amongst the leadership i'd reckon the General Sec, the President certainly is, half of the NEC, most of the DWP GEC, will be supporting them yes.

Civil Service Unions are not legally prohibited from supporting candidates in elections. The PCS does have a policy that forbids such action though that is up for debate at conference this year. There is a possibility that PCS may move towards consulting members on supporting candidates in elections that suport policies consistant with PCS principles.

The PCS Gen Sec personally is minded to support the principle of a left electoral alternative to Labour but tends to view any organisation that fails to seek to unite the left on a non-sectarian basis with some scepticism (i.e. he is likely I would guess to be unhappy with the apparent explicit exclusion of the SWP. Recall that he refused to attend the Respect conference on grounds that the SWP had been witchhunted out of the organisation). The PCS President and other SP members on the NEC and DWP GEC are likely to suport the inititiative in a personal capacity. However, the PCS policy position on the EU is not wholly in line with the RMT No2EU initiative. The official PCS position is for a democratic social Europe but is against the Lisbon Treaty.

As for PCS not being a 'real' union that is absurd. PCS has taken more strike action is recent years than any other union including RMT. PCS was at the forefront of trying to unite public sector unions in joint action, has led calls for TUC led demonstrations etc and, along with the RMT, has been one of the moe progressive voices at the TUC. No union is perfect but very few of the worst can be sensibly tagged as not 'real' unions.

 

[dennisr]

Well the SSP have certainly had NO official invite, and no copmmunication tho the National Secretary. Someone in the RMT/No2EU campaign contacted John McAllion re the SSP getting inviolved. McAllion rightly said that such an offical request had to go through the National Secretary. Someone from RMT/No2EU then aopproached Colin Fox, he said the same as McAllion and said go through the National Secretary. The National Secretary has received no communication from either the RMT or NO2EU.

It certainly sounds like a tu bureaucrat approach - if the rmt intend to go anywhere beyond a one off euro election bang it won't good enough i agree

 

[Fedayn]

Civil Service Unions are not legally prohibited from supporting candidates in elections. The PCS does have a policy that forbids such action though that is up for debate at conference this year. There is a possibility that PCS may move towards consulting members on supporting candidates in elections that suport policies consistant with PCS principles.

The PCS Gen Sec personally is minded to support the principle of a left electoral alternative to Labour but tends to view any organisation that fails to seek to unite the left on a non-sectarian basis with some scepticism (i.e. he is likely I would guess to be unhappy with the apparent explicit exclusion of the SWP. Recall that he refused to attend the Respect conference on grounds that the SWP had been witchhunted out of the organisation). The PCS President and other SP members on the NEC and DWP GEC are likely to suport the inititiative in a personal capacity. However, the PCS policy position on the EU is not wholly in line with the RMT No2EU initiative. The official PCS position is for a democratic social Europe but is against the Lisbon Treaty.

As for PCS not being a 'real' union that is absurd. PCS has taken more strike action is recent years than any other union including RMT. PCS was at the forefront of trying to unite public sector unions in joint action, has led calls for TUC led demonstrations etc and, along with the RMT, has been one of the moe progressive voices at the TUC. No union is perfect but very few of the worst can be sensibly tagged as not 'real' unions.

Aye, should have said affiliating. The political fund certainly allows us more scope. Aye there's a motion on the political fund at this years Annual Conference that will have relevance to the issue of PCS relationship to candidates in elections. National SOC Chair is in my branch and he mentioned this. Also found out i'm seconding an NEC compo on the 'far right'.

 

[dennisr]

Aye, should have said affiliating. The political fund certainly allows us more scope. Aye there's a motion on the political fund at this years Annual Conference that will have relevance to the issue of PCS relationship to candidates in elections.

Its obvious I know but, I get the impression that the present PCS leadership - while on the left - are very careful not to tie the union to any 'alternative' slates (beyond the 'personal capacity' thing). Quite right to - they have to win over their membership first to any such thing, especially given the union's history.

Given Serwotka's comments on no2eu - it will be interesting to see what initiatives come out of the motion and discussion.

 

[Groucho]

Aye, should have said affiliating. The political fund certainly allows us more scope. Aye there's a motion on the political fund at this years Annual Conference that will have relevance to the issue of PCS relationship to candidates in elections. National SOC Chair is in my branch and he mentioned this. Also found out i'm seconding an NEC compo on the 'far right'.

Well, we an even affiliate to a political party - there is no legal problem with that. Trade unions are independant from the business. As a Civil servant you can't express support for a political party, but as an individual you can, and as a trades unionist you can. There is a common misconception that we cannot get involved in party politics. PCS members have even stood as candidates in an individual personal capacity for a range of parties and we have had members elected as councillors in a range of parties (including Respect and Labour).

The PCS position is very clear though. Any move to affiliation to any political party would need a conference resolution followed by endorsement by a membership ballot. There is no affiliation proposal to this years conference, and were there to be one it would not be supported, though in previous years we have had the opportunity to laugh at attempts to win affiliation to Labour...If a genuine electoral alternative emerges then PCS in the future might affiliate.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

This initiative from the RMT is something of a missed opportunity. As something cooked up at the last minute if it had adopted a better programme and slogans it could have genuinely tapped into (and contributed to extending) a mood of defiance and rage over the recession.

Imagine if the RMT had sponsored candidates standing under the slogan -
'We won't pay for THEIR crisis - Bailout Workers not Banks' or something quite class conscious.

Imagine if the programme was a very simple left wing one, not even that radical, just designed to appeal to traditional labour voters:

Nationalise the banks, water, electricity, gas, railways
Tax the rich to rebuild the welfare state and pay for the crisis
Abolish council tax - for a local progressive income tax
Restore student grants - free education for all
End imperialist war - the main enemy of workers is at home
Oppose racism - the bosses not immigrants are attacking our living standards
Green New Deal - Solve the recession through solving climate chaos
Cheap and free public transport
Scrap anti-trade union laws

I think traditional labour voters would shout, 'YES!' and I would feel inspired to say with pride, I'm voting for this, and tell my friends and family about the initiative.

That's just a programme I drew up off the top of my head in 30 secs that I think would be a positive intervention, that would build working class resistance and class consciousness.

Instead we have all this blather, that is all over the place, including some dodgy stuff attacking the right to free movement and EU workers coming to Britain.

It's a real missed opportunity. And it stinks.

 

[glenquagmire]

PCS members have even stood as candidates in an individual personal capacity for a range of parties and we have had members elected as councillors in a range of parties (including Respect and Labour).

The Tory candidate in the Stoke Newington by-election last year was a PCS activist.

(I think she came fourth, just ahead of a one-man Turkish communist party)

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Nationalise the banks, water, electricity, gas, railways
Tax the rich to rebuild the welfare state and pay for the crisis
Abolish council tax - for a local progressive income tax
Restore student grants - free education for all
End imperialist war - the main enemy of workers is at home
Oppose racism - the bosses not immigrants are attacking our living standards
Green New Deal - Solve the recession through solving climate chaos
Cheap and free public transport
Scrap anti-trade union laws

I think traditional labour voters would shout, 'YES!'

oh yeah just like the Socialist Alliance and that worked didn't it

 

[Groucho]

oh yeah just like the Socialist Alliance and that worked didn't it

I think that the objective situation is more favourable now and the social basis of a party backed by a major union should be broader than the SA.

But the proposed base and the headline issues are unecessarily narrow (even given the fact that it is a EU election they are standing in)

 

[Fedayn]

Well, we an even affiliate to a political party - there is no legal problem with that. Trade unions are independant from the business. As a Civil servant you can't express support for a political party, but as an individual you can, and as a trades unionist you can. There is a common misconception that we cannot get involved in party politics. PCS members have even stood as candidates in an individual personal capacity for a range of parties and we have had members elected as councillors in a range of parties (including Respect and Labour).

The PCS position is very clear though. Any move to affiliation to any political party would need a conference resolution followed by endorsement by a membership ballot. There is no affiliation proposal to this years conference, and were there to be one it would not be supported, though in previous years we have had the opportunity to laugh at attempts to win affiliation to Labour...If a genuine electoral alternative emerges then PCS in the future might affiliate.

Aye, the motion on the political fund this year-according to a mate on SOC-will make backing candidates easier. Whether there is a future move to officially affiliate is imho, a long way off, but supporting candidates financailly aswell I believe, will be easier depending on the outcome of this motion.

 

[dennisr]

I think that the objective situation is more favourable now and the social basis of a party backed by a major union should be broader than the SA.

But the proposed base and the headline issues are unecessarily narrow (even given the fact that it is a EU election they are standing in)

History did not begin after Respect fucked up.

If the 'missed opportunities' of both the SAs and Respect had not been missed the left would be in a much better position to negotiate a better start when trade union leaders actually DO finally move - as it is they are even more wary of left groups. Far from leading the moves - some of the left have managed to isolate themselves further from left moving trade unionists by their previous actions.

The movement to the left of some trade union leaders (and members of course) was THE big OPPORTUNITY that the careful maintanance, building and grounding of Respect could have opened its doors too as that opportunity arose. Now it cannot

The smell comes from more than one direction...

I think you need to account for your own organisations past actions as well.

IF Respect had been cleverly built - democratically and inclusively - it would now be negotiating an electoral alliance even if seperate from the No2EU candidates - Your change of heart fella is noted - you don't seemed to have learnt anything from the previous debacle.

 

[trevhagl]

How's that different to UKIP, except for the moralising and posturing?

because it includes a lot of GOOD points

 

[durruti02]

this does all seem like a mess .. i didn't get for a while that it is aimed simply at the Euro elections .. the CPB shenangigans is daft and will put of a lot of people .. the name is bad etc etc .. i understand what it is trying to do but i think it will fail fairly badly

 

[Fedayn]

Sheridan to stand......

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Sheridan to stand......

But the CPB are heading the list ...

 

[Garcia Lorca]

Sheridan to stand......

 

[butchersapron]

But the CPB are heading the list ...

But it says Tomy you're ok, the SSP are not.

 

[Fedayn]

But it says Tomy you're ok, the SSP are not.

With the total refusal to officially approach the SSP that's exactly how it looks.

 

[dennisr]

With the total refusal to officially approach the SSP that's exactly how it looks.

But earlier you said they were approached - as individuals - 3 times?

It reflects the un-democratic approach - hand picking whoever it thinks has better profile (so Sheridan would be an obvious choice) of the organisers of no2eu rather than any 'party' favoritism - I wouldn't get paraniod about it. Sheridan was probably asked in the same way. no2eu is a short-term electoral front at this moment in time.

 

[liampreston]

So when will the candidates lists get announced? I've heard a rumour that a certain Sparkbrook councillor has shown interest in the West Mids.

The candidates list for NO2EU is at least kind of available in Scotland. A certain former Big Brother contestant among them....

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Tommy-Sheridan-to-court-protest.5180777.jp


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_(European_Parliamentary_constituency)

 

[JimPage]

But the CPB are heading the list ...

And as the saying those, those who pay the piper call the tune. The scottish Communist Party are little more than a joke organisation nowdays,and the fact that Solidarity are prepared to put themseleves below these tankies on the list is sad

 

[JimPage]

this does all seem like a mess .. i didn't get for a while that it is aimed simply at the Euro elections .. the CPB shenangigans is daft and will put of a lot of people .. the name is bad etc etc .. i understand what it is trying to do but i think it will fail fairly badly

And if you ingnore their rotten Stalinist politics and outlook for a moment, it is not as if the CPB have any electoral history in the last few years. Look at their result in the GLA elections in May 2008, where their UPS front organisation polled 0.26%........

 

[Fedayn]

But earlier you said they were approached - as individuals - 3 times?

It reflects the un-democratic approach - hand picking whoever it thinks has better profile (so Sheridan would be an obvious choice) of the organisers of no2eu rather than any 'party' favoritism - I wouldn't get paraniod about it. Sheridan was probably asked in the same way. no2eu is a short-term electoral front at this moment in time.

No, McAllion and Fox were approached personally. They BOTH told the person approaching what to do ie speak to the National Secretary, said person did not do it on either occasion. What does that tell you?

Well there's 'high profile' and there's 'high profile', depends on why you're profile is high. I also got told, to my face, why the fuck do you think the SSP weren't chased up? No paranoia Dennis, just the reality of petty Left politics, and hero worhsip up here.

Btw, Sheridan, wandered up to the school occupation, got his photo taken with a parent and then fucked off. Funnily enough that photo has now been doing the rounds as Tommy fighting the good fight..... Utter bollocks..... He turned up and then fucked off.

As for the selection, there's was no notification of it, no invites and nop attempt to involve anyone outside of their own little Stalinist-Trot lash up. Nice little lot the CWI are invovled in up here, pathetic frankly.

 

[dennisr]

As for the selection, there's was no notification of it, no invites and nop attempt to involve anyone outside of their own little Stalinist-Trot lash up. Nice little lot the CWI are invovled in up here, pathetic frankly.

I get the impression there was no democratic selection - just 'hand-picking' for the election. Don't know if is the RMT deciding who is 'suitable' but yes, smacks of tankie/trade union bureaucrat approach to elections.

We would not agree going any further than this election slate 'offer' to us unless such things were hammered out if anything is planned beyond the election. A lash-up involves some sort of mutual agreement - and we would not agree to cutting out other lefts. Thus far CWI individuals - with the agreement of the CWI - have only agreed to stand on a one-off EU electoral platform put forward by the RMT. A small group of individuals seems to think it can decide who the 'best lefts' are, who should best 'represent the working class' - that's a dangerous precident. I am sympathetic to Serwotkas comment's mentioned earlier on this thread.

I heard the same thing about Sheridan and the occupation (SU site?) - didn't someone defend him saying he had to go to an NUJ picket as well? (that he is a member of that union??) - I'm wary because of the bile coming from some who have fallen out with Sheridan - but yes, I'm not happy with the approach

 

[greenman]

Former anarcho-syndicalist (back in the days when I was a fellow member of the British International Workers Association section, DAM-IWA) Alex Gordon, now RMT officer and NO2EU spokesperson, writes on why the No2EU candidates will not be taking up their seats in the EU Parliament in today's Morning Star -
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/features/a_democratic_deficit

 

[Fedayn]

I get the impression there was no democratic selection - just 'hand-picking' for the election. Don't know if is the RMT deciding who is 'suitable' but yes, smacks of tankie/trade union bureaucrat approach to elections.

We would not agree going any further than this election slate 'offer' to us unless such things were hammered out if anything is planned beyond the election. A lash-up involves some sort of mutual agreement - and we would not agree to cutting out other lefts. Thus far CWI individuals - with the agreement of the CWI - have only agreed to stand on a one-off EU electoral platform put forward by the RMT. A small group of individuals seems to think it can decide who the 'best lefts' are, who should best 'represent the working class' - that's a dangerous precident. I am sympathetic to Serwotkas comment's mentioned earlier on this thread.

I heard the same thing about Sheridan and the occupation (SU site?) - didn't someone defend him saying he had to go to an NUJ picket as well? (that he is a member of that union??) - I'm wary because of the bile coming from some who have fallen out with Sheridan - but yes, I'm not happy with the approach

There was no attempt at democracy, the CWI went along with this without a murmur. And yes it is a 'lash-up- as your leading member up here get's his man on the list in 2nd. Err yes the CWI has agreed to cutting out other Lefts. FFS the CPB told the SWP to feck off (gets a tad confusing up here mind with Solidarity), the CWI response.... err nothing. The SSP had no official invite, the refusal by the RMT to officially approach the SSP met with what response from the CWI.... Errr yes that's it absolutely zero, zilch, nada. Nothing was said by the CWI as regards to cutting other Lefts out dennis, make of that what you will.

The occupation has been on for 2 weeks, the NUJ picket happened on one of the days, he's had plenty of time to go to the schools and instead turns up, gets his photo taken and then fucks off. And then clearly allows this utterly fucking lame excuse to be whored out on the internet.

Neither have the CWI made any serious attempt at an intervention in the schools occupation. NO2EU more important?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I get the impression there was no democratic selection - just 'hand-picking' for the election. Don't know if is the RMT deciding who is 'suitable' but yes, smacks of tankie/trade union bureaucrat approach to elections.

We would not agree going any further than this election slate 'offer' to us unless such things were hammered out if anything is planned beyond the election. A lash-up involves some sort of mutual agreement - and we would not agree to cutting out other lefts. Thus far CWI individuals - with the agreement of the CWI - have only agreed to stand on a one-off EU electoral platform put forward by the RMT. A small group of individuals seems to think it can decide who the 'best lefts' are, who should best 'represent the working class' - that's a dangerous precident. I am sympathetic to Serwotkas comment's mentioned earlier on this thread.
...

Do you have a problem then with a "trade union-initiated" campaign 'selecting' a (retired?) stalinist professor as its leading candidate, ahead of real trade unionists and your own CWI, and disagree with Sheridan when he said: "This is strong list of candidates."?

And do you not agree that any elected candidate should refuse to take their seat in the parliament?

If so, that's some disagreement ... what exactly do you agree with in No2EU?