No Smoking in Wales

[littlebabyjesus]

Passive smoking risks are well documented and the risk is there however small regardless of ventilation. If for example you used that station concourse twice a day for all of your working life then the risks exist-and what about the people that work on a station concourse-their exposure is even greater. No matter how you look at it-smoking in public is a health risk. We could spend all day churning out risk factors/probablities-but one thing you cant eliminate is the actual risk.

It is possible for a risk to be so small that it is not worth considering. It is possible to be hit by a bolt of lightning from a far-off cloud on a sunny day - a 'bolt from the blue'. This risk is not worth considering when you are deciding whether or not to go to the shops.

And passive smoking risks are, in fact, surprisingly badly documented. The evidence is far from clear-cut and Richard Doll, no less, the scientist who first documented the link between smoking and lung cancer, was far from convinced. It is very difficult to separate out lifestyle from passive smoking - essentially, if you spend a lot of time around smokers, you're more likely to have a bad diet and not exercise too much than those who avoid smoky atmospheres, which makes definitive studies very difficult.

 

[Grandma Death]

The evidence is far from clear-cut and Richard Doll, no less, the scientist who first documented the link between smoking and lung cancer, was far from convinced.

He sounds pretty convinced here:

Sir Richard also spoke out on the health risks of passive smoking, criticising the tobacco companies attempts to undermine the evidence that passive smoking causes fatal disease. "The evidence that it does it is clear", he said, "I believe that nobody should have to work in an atmosphere polluted by other people?s smoke".


http://www.doctorsandtobacco.org/news.php?id=133

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

hmm see here's the thing this is going to lead to an increase i violence in pubs and clubs at the weekend and here's why...

large establishments have a policy of no readmittance in the west end and the like you go out you stay out... or pay up to come back in... so how's this going to work then when people can't smoke inside and there's not exteror to smoke at which is still on premises? they'll have to allow readmittence or lose the trade... look at how many people smoke in anygiven club, it's over 50% indeed it's usually more like 70% so this will mean more people will sneak in via the readmittence polices getting more things into clubs drugs kinves guns etc as the security isn't goign to be caught up constantly having to search smokers goign in an out for a puff...

euqlly most clubs have single entrance/exit points (other than fire escapes) so there will be even more problems in controlling flow of patrons... it' has yet to be thought how this will affect fire regs etc (1 in 1 out polices) or the levels of aggro noise public distrubance which will occure as a result of this...

 

[Grandma Death]

hmm see here's the thing this is going to lead to an increase i violence in pubs and clubs at the weekend and here's why...

Thats entirely speculative garf-are you able to provide evidence of this in places like New York or Ireland where the ban has been in force for sometime?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Richard Doll also said: 'The effects of other people smoking in my presence are so small it doesn't worry me.' Said on Desert Island Discs

 

[Badgers]

I was thinking about this in a (London Pub) the other day and I looked around to gage the numbers. I reckon about 75% of people in there were smoking and it was a medium sized pub serving food.

Was reading the other day that in Scotland a lot of pubs have laid off staff following the expense of adding outside space for smoking and a downturn in trade.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In Ireland around 10% of pubs have closed, so I would expect at least that to happen here. You can bet it won't be the horrible Wetherspoon-types that will go under.

In Ireland, also, sales in offies have gone up, so more people are staying at home and smoking in front of their families. If you're thinking about improving public health, then you can make a strong case for providing a comfortable place away from the home for people to smoke in.

And FFS, pubs are places people go to be a bit naughty. That's their job.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Thats entirely speculative garf-are you able to provide evidence of this in places like New York or Ireland where the ban has been in force for sometime?

are you saying that they are in anyway comparitive to the active and utterly overcrowded west end/soho club scene... i mean really name me one area in ireland like it comparitively...

and of coruse it's fucking speculitive you dishonest twat it's my opinion of what will happen after the fact when this is brought in as there is no comparitive of a future event possible it has to be....

you are gettign thicker by the post....

 

[Grandma Death]

. If you're thinking about improving public health, then you can make a strong case for providing a comfortable place away from the home for people to smoke in.

.

As long as that comfortable space is away from other non smokers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking

 

[Grandma Death]

are you saying that they are in anyway comparitive to the active and utterly overcrowded west end/soho club scene... i mean really name me one area in ireland like it comparitively...

And how about New York?

and of coruse it's fucking speculitive you dishonest twat it's my opinion of what will happen after the fact when this is brought in as there is no comparitive of a future event possible it has to be....

you are gettign thicker by the post....

E2A Dont want to get into a slanging match with you garf.

Either engage properly or dont engage at all please you nasty man.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As long as that comfortable space is away from other non smokers.

Or non-smokers (like me) who, like Richard Doll, have no problem with people smoking around them - for instance in pubs, say, that allow smoking.

 

[Grandma Death]

Or non-smokers (like me) who, like Richard Doll, have no problem with people smoking around them - for instance in pubs, say, that allow smoking.

No doll said:

"I believe that nobody should have to work in an atmosphere polluted by other peoples smoke".

He had no problem with peopole smoking around him-but didnt feel the same about other people having to put up with passive smoking.

 

[editor]

I was in New York before and after the smoking ban and the only difference I noticed was that I didn't come home stinking of other people's cancerous smoke at the end of the night.

The pubs, dive bars and clubs were just as exciting and as much fun as when people were choking on their fags and filling the place with noxious fumes.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No doll said:

"I believe that nobody should have to work in an atmosphere polluted by other peoples smoke".

He had no problem with peopole smoking around him-but didnt feel the same about other people having to put up with passive smoking.

What about people choosing to work in a smoky atmos - for instance if a certain proportion of pubs allowed smoking. Better than no job at all, no? What annoys me is the unwillingness to compromise.

 

[Grandma Death]

What about people choosing to work in a smoky atmos - for instance if a certain proportion of pubs allowed smoking. Better than no job at all, no? What annoys me is the unwillingness to compromise.

If someone can staff a whole establishement with people willing to work in a smoky environment and those staff and patrons sign disclaimers say they are willing to accept the risk then I dont see why not. Highly improbable but I dont see why not.

 

[editor]

What about people choosing to work in a smoky atmos - for instance if a certain proportion of pubs allowed smoking. Better than no job at all, no?

Most people working in bar jobs don't have the luxury of being able to pick and choose.

But please explain why anyone should have to work in a atmosphere that it hazardous to their health?

Why should the smoker's "right" to exhale noxious and poisonous fumes be placed ahead of a worker's right to a safe work environment?

No one's trying to ban smoking outright.

 

[lunatrick]

I say good - for once wales is leading the way in the uk..(ok mainland uk)


does anybody remember the four bars 10 or 15 years ago when it was so smoky it hurt your eyes? I used to smoke then as well....these days nearly a year into giving up I'm obviously a nicotine fascist....this argument about falling sales, delelict pubs etc...what about all the people who don't go now because of the smoke? perhaps pubs like any other business need to keep up to compete? as much as I love the local boozer that stinks of the 'fug' - the albany or the claude being mine from birth, I think society generally is shifting......

 

[ICB]

Went for a pint after work last Friday and came home stinking of smoke.

Looking forward to the next one much more.

Generally uppity smokers at work as they're no longer allowed to smoke outside the building, they have to move onto the pavement or smoke in their cars (the land is owned by Dyfed-Powys Police and they've instigated a blanket ban). Even the most die-hard smokers admit it's probably good for them in the long run as they're bound to cut down. Most likely get some more work done as well.

 

[Grandma Death]

I say good - for once wales is leading the way in the uk..(ok mainland uk)


.....

As well as on NHS prescriptions

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Most people working in bar jobs don't have the luxury of being able to pick and choose.

But please explain why anyone should have to work in a atmosphere that it hazardous to their health?

Why should the smoker's "right" to exhale noxious and poisonous fumes be placed ahead of a worker's right to a safe work environment?

No one's trying to ban smoking outright.

erm because at it's most basic here... with out the customers there'd be no work... the old adage of the customer is always right, and it being a Service industry would usually be the give away points... so it's not a demand for ANYONE have to work in an atmosphere that is hazardous to their health is it?

stop sticking up straw men

 

[lunatrick]

well a little bit is better than none...............on the subject of workers rights re bar work.......for me to work 40 hours a week in a smoky atmosphere - unthinkable - so why should bar staff?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Most people working in bar jobs don't have the luxury of being able to pick and choose.

But please explain why anyone should have to work in a atmosphere that it hazardous to their health?

Why should the smoker's "right" to exhale noxious and poisonous fumes be placed ahead of a worker's right to a safe work environment?

No one's trying to ban smoking outright.

Problem is, as Ireland and Scotland are showing, the choice often isn't 'work in no-smoking pub' or 'work in smoking pub'. It's 'work in smoking pub' or 'don't work in a pub at all, cos it will have closed'. I'm all for a partial ban. The total ban, I fear, will see many of the more interesting pubs closing. That may not have happened in New York, but it appears to have happened in Ireland.

 

[lunatrick]

Problem is, as Ireland and Scotland are showing, the choice often isn't 'work in no-smoking pub' or 'work in smoking pub'. It's 'work in smoking pub' or 'don't work in a pub at all, cos it will have closed'. I'm all for a partial ban. The total ban, I fear, will see many of the more interesting pubs closing. That may not have happened in New York, but it appears to have happened in Ireland.

I'm not convinced that this is true......anecdotal evidence suggets that overall people in pubs etc has increased.......due to a smoke free environment...only anecdotal mind,,

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm not convinced that this is true......anecdotal evidence suggets that overall people in pubs etc has increased.......due to a smoke free environment...only anecdotal mind,,

Hard facts, I'm afraid. Around 10% of pubs in Ireland have closed since the ban. Sales in offies have gone up - smokers are staying at home and drinking and smoking in front of the telly.

 

[Grandma Death]

Hard facts, I'm afraid. Around 10% of pubs in Ireland have closed since the ban.

Just out of interest why do you think thats happened in ireland and not NY as your earlier post suggested?

 

[lunatrick]

Hard facts, I'm afraid. Around 10% of pubs in Ireland have closed since the ban.

is that a direct consequence of smoking though? isn't there lots of pubs shutting anyway for other reasons?

 

[editor]

Problem is, as Ireland and Scotland are showing, the choice often isn't 'work in no-smoking pub' or 'work in smoking pub'. It's 'work in smoking pub' or 'don't work in a pub at all, cos it will have closed'. I'm all for a partial ban. The total ban, I fear, will see many of the more interesting pubs closing. That may not have happened in New York, but it appears to have happened in Ireland.

If a village only has one pub and it's a smoking one, where's the choice for workers?

Or if I'm going out to meet friends who smoke, their addiction to nicotine is likely to be so great I'd be forced to keep on inhaling their poisonous fumes in the nearest 'smoking' pub.

Oh, and please explain what makes a pub more inherently "interesting" just because people smoke there?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

is that a direct consequence of smoking though? isn't there lots of pubs shutting anyway for other reasons?

This is true. But the ban has accelerated the trend.

 

[Grandma Death]

This is true. But the ban has accelerated the trend.

So you say...but not in New York? Why is that?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh, and please explain what makes a pub more inherently "interesting" just because people smoke there?

You misunderstand me. It will be small, interesting pubs that will cope least well with the ban is what I meant. Wetherspoons will no doubt continue to prosper.

If the pub is the only one in a village, and only has one room, you have a strong case for a ban. If you are in a town with many pubs, you have a strong case, I think, for, say, half or a third allowing smoking, or all of them having rooms where you can smoke. Workers are not likely to die as a result of passing through smoking rooms occasionally.

Regarding your friends, do you really need the law to help you out in your dealings with them? That's a sorry state of affairs, I think - not the law's place at all.