No platform

[durruti02]

As the editor has made clear, extrapolating a sites' popularity from the number of "hits" it gets per day/week/month is not very sensible. To get a better idea of popularity you'd need to know how many of the people making those "hits" had actually stayed on the site, for how long and how often they returned.

That aside, where you get the idea (except from cheg, so say no more ) that people are denying the resurgence of the BNP is beyond me. Only a dolt wouldn't be worried about them getting their sticky hands on political power, even on the purely local level they're currently exercising it at.

but we can not know how long they stay on so we are left with hits v. links .. and clearly hits are better indication

plenty of people have been denying this .. er e.g. attica! and ed. above

 

[durruti02]

I this case it's because the poster is obviously a fascist troll, it's not what's he's talking about.

makes no differrence .. that it is part of a campaign OR that it is a muppet who has been convinced makes no odds .. it is indicative of a process that is leaving the left

this happens far far far to often on urban .. i should have included it in the good manners thread .. people obsess on who wrote a post who a poster is are they a troll etc etc etc .. people need to deal with the posts NOT what they think may be behind them ( thye are usually wrong)

 

[cockneyrebel]

makes no differrence .. that it is part of a campaign OR that it is a muppet who has been convinced makes no odds .. it is indicative of a process that is leaving the left behind

No it's not it's a thread on U75 which is all but irrelevant to the wider world. Apart from anything else there are next to no left activists on U75 anyway.

As VP has said above no-one on here on the left is ignoring or denies the threat from the BNP.

 

[liberty123]

but we can not know how long they stay on so we are left with hits v. links .. and clearly hits are better indication

plenty of people have been denying this .. er e.g. attica! and ed. above

Well the fact of the matter is people are reading the stuff on their site. The first objective in producing any sort of political tract- of which the BNP site is a modern form, is that people whether supporters, enemies or any shade in between, are looking at it.

The SWP would love three hundred thousand regular hits on their site. Unfortunately there simply aren't enough internet surfers that bored.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well the fact of the matter is people are reading the stuff on their site. The first objective in producing any sort of political tract- of which the BNP site is a modern form, is that people whether supporters, enemies or any shade in between, are looking at it.

Ah, but how do you know they're reading, have you checked the site's logs to see how long individual browsers are staying on each page?
Somehow I doubt it.

The SWP would love three hundred thousand regular hits on their site. Unfortunately there simply aren't enough internet surfers that bored.

Hits are meaningless. Any half-arsed script kiddie could run some code to bump the hit rate on the site. It's quality, not quantity that is important.

 

[liberty123]

Ah, but how do you know they're reading, have you checked the site's logs to see how long individual browsers are staying on each page?
Somehow I doubt it.

Hits are meaningless. Any half-arsed script kiddie could run some code to bump the hit rate on the site. It's quality, not quantity that is important.

well all things being equal, let's do a straw poll on here which site has the average urbanite visited most in the last month- the BNP or the SWP?

I doubt regardless of politics the SWP is anyone's homepage. SWP claim 50,000 at demo, police claim 3000. Which figure do you think is most likely to be closest to the truth- if you had to put your life on it?

 

[cockneyrebel]

Look we all the BNP website is your homepage.

Well done you have guaranteed your place in Valhalla.

 

[ViolentPanda]

well all things being equal, let's do a straw poll on here which site has the average urbanite visited most in the last month- the BNP or the SWP?

Neither.

I doubt regardless of politics the SWP is anyone's homepage. SWP claim 50,000 at demo, police claim 3000. Which figure do you think is most likely to be closest to the truth- if you had to put your life on it?

You're couching your argument as if you believe that you're making points about the SWP that most of "the left" would disagree with. I hate to disillusion you, especially as you seem to have constructed your argument around some idea of the Swappies as an exemplar of "left" politics, but just about everyone except swappies loath the swappies, just like everyone except BNP members loath the BNP. Both groups are pariahs, cancers on the body politic, steaming piles of ideological shit.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Look we all the BNP website is your homepage.

Well done you have guaranteed your place in Valhalla.

You say that as though the average BNPer is a warrior.

Entry to Valhalla is based on martial achievement, not about how many single immigrant/gay/ethnic males a mob of racist fuckwits have given a kicking to, that's not martial achievement, it's base cowardice.

Always used to make me laugh, going into my hometown locals on leave, listening to the NF giving it the bigg'un. Any ex-services in that hall of heroes? Were there fuck!
Most of the Aryan heroes were and are keck-pissing chickenshits who bottled anything that even remotely resembled one-on-one confrontation or danger. Backstabbers, wife-beaters and beer-bellied kakenkoppen the lot of them.

 

[liberty123]

well all things being equal, let's do a straw poll on here which site has the average urbanite visited most in the last month- the BNP or the SWP?

Neither.

You're couching your argument as if you believe that you're making points about the SWP that most of "the left" would disagree with. I hate to disillusion you, especially as you seem to have constructed your argument around some idea of the Swappies as an exemplar of "left" politics, but just about everyone except swappies loath the swappies, just like everyone except BNP members loath the BNP. Both groups are pariahs, cancers on the body politic, steaming piles of ideological shit.

No I'm just making the point that unlike the SWP- the BNP site has to be at least worth reading to be getting the number of hits it does. No one would even put it in the browser if it was talking bullshit.

 

[liberty123]

Both groups are pariahs, cancers on the body politic, steaming piles of ideological shit.

Why don't you try to violently
suppress the swp then?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Both groups are pariahs, cancers on the body politic, steaming piles of ideological shit.

Why don't you try to violently
suppress the swp then?

I treat members of both parties who get in my face exactly the same. First I try reason, then I use other methods.

Like I said, they're both cancers, and ultimately they both draw on the same top-down, intellectually-bereft, faux-democratic politics of authoritarianism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No I'm just making the point that unlike the SWP- the BNP site has to be at least worth reading to be getting the number of hits it does. No one would even put it in the browser if it was talking bullshit.

So you don't think that a percentage of the hits are people clicking on links to see if the BNP are as crass and as crap as they're reputed to be?

 

[gentlegreen]

So you don't think that a percentage of the hits are people clicking on links to see if the BNP are as crass and as crap as they're reputed to be?

That certainly explains several visits I've made.

 

[In Bloom]

That aside, where you get the idea (except from cheg, so say no more ) that people are denying the resurgence of the BNP is beyond me. Only a dolt wouldn't be worried about them getting their sticky hands on political power, even on the purely local level they're currently exercising it at.

The thing is, the BNP are nowhere near getting their hands on real political power. They are growing, and it is indicative of a shift to the right in this country, but I can't see them getting into power any time soon. They are, however, very handy when it comes to mobilising leftists to vote Labour.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The thing is, the BNP are nowhere near getting their hands on real political power. They are growing, and it is indicative of a shift to the right in this country, but I can't see them getting into power any time soon.

The problem is that (notwithstanding their generally appalling performance once they've won a ward) every time they win a ward they gain another morsel of credibility with the politically-naive, they convince another crypto-racist that it's okay to transgress your feelings of self-loathing and shame, and to actually vote that way if they stand in your ward. It isn't about what they've got because they've got sod all in terms of "respectable" support or policies at the moment. It's about what they have the potential to gain, what they might become.

They are, however, very handy when it comes to mobilising leftists to vote Labour.

More fool those who're gullible enough to fall for that particular con-trick.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That certainly explains several visits I've made.

I go there, same as I read many right and left sites, UK, Euro and US, for that matter.

 

[PaulOK]

I have long thought that the BNP should actually be doing better in this country - We have an unpopular Labour government in power and centrist opposition parties who hardly command much more enthusiasm combined with the largest amount of mass immigration in English history and all the BNP have to show for it is a fringe status with 40 or so councillors out of 22,000, 8000 or so members in a population of 60 million and they are no where near winning a seat in Parliament. This backs up my belief that Britain has always presented a difficult terrain for fascist groups to grow and prosper - a fact realised recently by senior BNP figure Tony Lecomber who basically admitted that the BNP will never breakthrough. The basic conservatism and lack of political passion of the British population hamstrings both the radical left and right in this country. One of the charateristics of fascist parties is their ability to grow and prosper very quickly - Forget eagles and lions, surley the BNP's symbol should be the tortoise!

 

[The Black Hand]

I have long thought that the BNP should actually be doing better in this country - We have an unpopular Labour government in power and centrist opposition parties who hardly command much more enthusiasm combined with the largest amount of mass immigration in English history and all the BNP have to show for it is a fringe status with 40 or so councillors out of 22,000, 8000 or so members in a population of 60 million and they are no where near winning a seat in Parliament. This backs up my belief that Britain has always presented a difficult terrain for fascist groups to grow and prosper - a fact realised recently by senior BNP figure Tony Lecomber who basically admitted that the BNP will never breakthrough. The basic conservatism and lack of political passion of the British population hamstrings both the radical left and right in this country. One of the charateristics of fascist parties is their ability to grow and prosper very quickly - Forget eagles and lions, surley the BNP's symbol should be the tortoise!

Good post.

 

[The Black Hand]

but we can not know how long they stay on so we are left with hits v. links .. and clearly hits are better indication

plenty of people have been denying this .. er e.g. attica! and ed. above

I am NOT denying that the BNP have had a very small but growing influence, they are still way way short of ANY political influence and way short of what the European Left have to cope with in their countries. What I do not think is useful is turning every issue back to the anti fascist one and reducing political activity to anti fascism or setting up a group (IWCA) to mirror what fascists are doing (which is not anti fascism anyway but that's another debate).

I think you all underestimate the amount of leftist sympathisers out there who may have a look at the BNP site. The amount of hits is no indication of support at all, it is due to the media publicity and the fascist BNP demon imagery that gives them the hits. THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING OF THEIR OWN - THEY ARE A PAPER TIGER THAT COULD EASILY BE SQUASHED.

The quality of what support they have is at a very low and unpoliticised level - this will create a lot of problems for the BNP apart from what problems we can give them In short the BNP have little of any use for the vast majority of people today, they are selling myths, all they are is demon that the state would have to invent if it did not already exist. They are fools, and Griffin is a Twat.

 

[liberty123]

I am NOT denying that the BNP have had a very small but growing influence, they are still way way short of ANY political influence and way short of what the European Left have to cope with in their countries. What I do not think is useful is turning every issue back to the anti fascist one and reducing political activity to anti fascism or setting up a group (IWCA) to mirror what fascists are doing (which is not anti fascism anyway but that's another debate).

I think you all underestimate the amount of leftist sympathisers out there who may have a look at the BNP site. The amount of hits is no indication of support at all, it is due to the media publicity and the fascist BNP demon imagery that gives them the hits. THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING OF THEIR OWN - THEY ARE A PAPER TIGER THAT COULD EASILY BE SQUASHED.

The quality of what support they have is at a very low and unpoliticised level - this will create a lot of problems for the BNP apart from what problems we can give them In short the BNP have little of any use for the vast majority of people today, they are selling myths, all they are is demon that the state would have to invent if it did not already exist. They are fools, and Griffin is a Twat.

I disagree and i think you all do too. If the BNP had a level playing field media wise they would take off. Where they have been mentioned in a mainstream context ie margeret hodge they've practically received unanimous votes. Urbanites must know their only hope is to disrupt and intimidate nationalist candidates and campaigns. beyond that there isn't much at all for urbanites to engage in.

I think urbanites can possibly invade the stock exchange to try and disrupt the city of london. But even then you just amount to a few crustie yobboes in almost all our perceptions and the city slickers have shown an increasing unexpected volante to kick you back. Not so easy anymore is it against what oyu assumed would be pussy tie wearers ? It shoudn't happen to an anarchist to be beaten upon on by merchant bankers and bond traders lol

what next for urban75 wadicals????

 

[The Black Hand]

We disagree then. The BNP are nothing, full of little englander wankers..

 

[butchersapron]

I disagree and i think you all do too. If the BNP had a level playing field media wise they would take off. Where they have been mentioned in a mainstream context ie margeret hodge they've practically received unanimous votes. Urbanites must know their only hope is to disrupt and intimidate nationalist candidates and campaigns. beyond that there isn't much at all for urbanites to engage in.

I think urbanites can possibly invade the stock exchange to try and disrupt the city of london. But even then you just amount to a few crustie yobboes in almost all our perceptions and the city slickers have shown an increasing unexpected volante to kick you back. Not so easy anymore is it against what oyu assumed would be pussy tie wearers ? It shoudn't happen to an anarchist to be beaten upon on by merchant bankers and bond traders lol

what next for urban75 wadicals????

Fuck me, you really are a prat. Do you know what year it is? I take it that you've now finally decided to cast off the disguise of concerned anti-facist that you oh so skillfully donned since you've been here - who amonsgt us could tell? That's pretty brave of you.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I disagree and i think you all do too. If the BNP had a level playing field media wise they would take off.

"Take off"? Really?
I don't agree. The BNP doesn't have the degree of coherence to its' policies that would allow them to benefit from greater media coverage. Yet again, they're like the SWP in that respect.

Where they have been mentioned in a mainstream context ie margeret hodge they've practically received unanimous votes.

"Practically unanimous" makes about as much sense as "nearly alive" or "partially pregnant", and claiming that a majority of people agreed with Margaret Hodge on the basis of a few vox pops is, to put it plainly, spin with no substance.

Urbanites must know their only hope is to disrupt and intimidate nationalist candidates and campaigns. beyond that there isn't much at all for urbanites to engage in.

I can't decide whether that sentence is a manifestation of the arrogance of youth, or just plain stupidity.
You see, people with the same views as the BNP have go back over 100 years in British politics, and it's not small groups of people who've fucked them off, it's always been the working class. We fucked them off when Mosley was their poster-boy, we fucked them off when the NF thought they could take over, we'll fuck them off whenever it's necessary.

I think urbanites can possibly invade the stock exchange to try and disrupt the city of london. But even then you just amount to a few crustie yobboes in almost all our perceptions and the city slickers have shown an increasing unexpected volante to kick you back. Not so easy anymore is it against what oyu assumed would be pussy tie wearers ? It shoudn't happen to an anarchist to be beaten upon on by merchant bankers and bond traders lol

what next for urban75 wadicals????

You're a bit of a saddo, aren't you, making assumptions based on your own prejudices.
That's good though, it shows that you're as blinkered, as self-deluding and as risible as your predecessors, and no doubt just as cowardly.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fuck me, you really are a prat. Do you know what year it is? I take it that you've now finally decided to cast off the disguise of concerned anti-facist that you oh so skillfully donned since you've been here - who amonsgt us could tell? That's pretty brave of you.

The usual chest-beating prose and vapid generalisations that "British nationalists" have been spouting for at least the last 70 years, too. Reading that was almost like reading the editorial in Spearhead circa the mid-1970s.

And this person thinks that the BNP would "take off" if they had more media exposure?

Feh.

 

[liberty123]

They'rd take off in some areas I think, not all areas. They' showed 7% rating in the opinion polls in the wake of margaret hodge's assertion that 8 in ten of the voters in Barking were talking of intending to vote for them.

Their difficulty is that they can't tailor their policies on the basis of a strictly class based appeal. They would have to persuade tories that they were a tory party- supporting lower taxation etc whilst simultaneously promising council houses etc to working class people etc.

Then again the SNP in Scotland manage to overcome this problem.

 

[ViolentPanda]

They'rd take off in some areas I think, not all areas. They' showed 7% rating in the opinion polls in the wake of margaret hodge's assertion that 8 in ten of the voters in Barking were talking of intending to vote for them.

Take a higher ed qualification in statistics and/or statistical analysis. It'll show you just how irrelevant any non-controlled poll data really is.

Their difficulty is that they can't tailor their policies on the basis of a strictly class based appeal. They would have to persuade tories that they were a tory party- supporting lower taxation etc whilst simultaneously promising council houses etc to working class people etc.

I'd have thought that the BNPs' problem is obvious. They need working class support to build a mass base, but they'll only ever achieve marginal results from working class sources. What the BNP want is middle c;ass support and the political "respectability" that they imagine goes with it. Look to history, see where Mosley achieved most support, look to the NF in the late 1970s, see where their support increasingly came from.
The BNP are trapped between the rock of marginal working class support (we have long memories) and their desire to be electorally-viable at a national level. Local politics may be a stepping stone to regional and national politics, but when your policies are incoherent, and even your local politicians are unable to do their job properly...
With any luck the tensions within the party will be as effective at rendering them unfit as they have been for the past 20 years

Then again the SNP in Scotland manage to overcome this problem.

Because the ScotNats don't base their politics on exclusion, but on inclusivity. It's not "Scotland for the Celts", it's "Scotland's resources for itself and all its' people" and "self-determination for Scotland".

 

[nino_savatte]

Then again the SNP in Scotland manage to overcome this problem.

There is no real comparison that can be made between the SNP and the BNP.

 

[liberty123]

I didn't mean to say i was sympathetic to yuppies against "anarchists". It's just the british yob whether a drunken football hooligan or Class war rioter is just so bloody grim and british. Ask most people and they'll agree- as they dream of emmigration to a happier place.

Oh please. Don't wallow in grimness mate. join dating online sites-Take a holiday in Florida or something, meet a woman from somewhere exotic in the world and FALL IN lOVE. Expand your horizons. Don't just live all your life in some dank squat in london, being boorish and listening to Joy division. Don't just settle for looking up at grey clouds and wondering why everyone doesn't join you. Seek the sunshine of life.

 

[bluestreak]

so what you're saying is that you encourage people to head abroad to seek a better life for themself?