No matter how you look at it, Israel

[Udo Erasmus]

Maybe your problems would be solved if Israel was dismantled, the Jews were kicked into the sea and then the Palestinians could have a non-democratic state like the rest of the Arab World.

Then we wouldnt have to worry about people voting for right-wing fascists because there would be no other party other than the government!

Palestinians are the only Arab country to have had the opportunity to vote in democratic elections - hence, the reason why they are being punished by Europe, US & Israel.

Nobody wants to kick the Jews into the sea. But we do want Israel to be dismantled and replaced with one secular democratic state in Israel/Palestine where Jews, Arabs, Christians, Muslims etc. would have equal rights.

Warren, if you are a British Jew you have the same rights as any other British citizen. In Israel if you are an Israeli Arab (a member of the indigenous Palestinian population of Israel) you are barred from living in over 90% of Israel on the basis that this is land set aside for Jews only. If any country in the world discriminated against Jews in the way that Israel discriminates against it's minority Arab population they would be considered to be a pariah state condemned around the world.

It is a bit comical, as once again, Israeli warplanes pound Lebanon & Gaza, to hear that old line about "driving the Jews into the sea". Thousands of Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed from their homeland, and the Palestinians form one of the largest and most persistent refugee populations in the world, their houses are regularly demolished, Jewish settlements are stealing the ever-decreasing Palestinian territories - and yet you raise that old phony threat of Arabs driving the Jews into the sea.

 

[nino_savatte]

Maybe your problems would be solved if Israel was dismantled, the Jews were kicked into the sea and then the Palestinians could have a non-democratic state like the rest of the Arab World.

Then we wouldnt have to worry about people voting for right-wing fascists because there would be no other party other than the government!

Christ on a flamin' bike! You don't half talk some shite but the real beauty here is "right wing fascists"...are there any other kind?

 

[nino_savatte]

Again ill ask you what Arab countries in the Middle East have a democratic state. Egypt & UAE certainly do not. Lebanon it is arguable. Come on, idiot spit it out!!

Let me ask you this question: where on earth does there exist a real, functioning democracy where the people are empowered and have a say in how their government is run?

Please don't say the UK, USA, France, Germany or any other country because you would be wrong.

 

[Kanda]

This was posted in another thread, I think it's relevant here:

Somebody above is claiming Israel are hard done by re: Land???

 

[cemertyone]

Yeah Egypt, the UAE are democracies. I suppose with the Saudis voting recently, it is also a democratic state.

Idiot.

go wave your Star of David else where son..your sounding like an IDF soldier after he shoots a Pal kid dead and then calls her a terrorist...wanker

 

[hipipol]

Voting for disaster

By contiually electing ex-terrorist and military types as PM the Israeli elctorate perpetuates the militarisation of their society, supports the ex-judicail killing of perceived enemies, supports the invasion and annexation of territory which belongs to other sovreign nations, supposts the herding of Palestinians into the giant laager that is Gaza, etc
Unless they break that cycle, not only do they harm themselves with they endanger all of us.
The radicalisation of Islam and its hatred of the West is very much a product of Israels behaviour and the craven US support offered by successive Presidents. Rightly or wrongly, Israel is percaived in most of the Muslim world as being part of "The West" and is always claimed as one of the reasons for Jihadis hatred of "western values"
Get our toops out of Iraq and get Israels back into their own borders.
If it means blockading Israeli ports, stopping her citizens travelling, refusing to buy any Israeli product, thats the way to do it.
However, the fact they have nuclear weapons, are mentally unstable and dont give a flying fuck about anyone except themselves makes any action targetted at them dangerous but we really must do something.

 

[nino_savatte]

By contiually electing ex-terrorist and military types as PM the Israeli elctorate perpetuates the militarisation of their society, supports the ex-judicail killing of perceived enemies, supports the invasion and annexation of territory which belongs to other sovreign nations, supposts the herding of Palestinians into the giant laager that is Gaza, etc
Unless they break that cycle, not only do they harm themselves with they endanger all of us.
The radicalisation of Islam and its hatred of the West is very much a product of Israels behaviour and the craven US support offered by successive Presidents. Rightly or wrongly, Israel is percaived in most of the Muslim world as being part of "The West" and is always claimed as one of the reasons for Jihadis hatred of "western values"
Get our toops out of Iraq and get Israels back into their own borders.
If it means blockading Israeli ports, stopping her citizens travelling, refusing to buy any Israeli product, thats the way to do it.
However, the fact they have nuclear weapons, are mentally unstable and dont give a flying fuck about anyone except themselves makes any action targetted at them dangerous but we really must do something.

Well said.

 

[moono]

Yeah, so first we have to cut out the rot in our own governments.

I'm appalled at the failure to produce a UN resolution calling for a cessation of violence. It amounts to an advocation of violence.

 

[hipipol]

The US will Veto

Judging by Bush-things statement ref not telling israel how to "defend itself" cant see them allowing any censure - nowt from the UN then
The Israelis are coming to resemble killer bees in my eyes, you know bump against their nest a massive swarms comes out and kill everything nearby.
Suspect its a just as instinctive, knee jerky and thought free a process for the bees as it seem for the Israelis

 

[revol68]

Judging by Bush-things statement ref not telling israel how to "defend itself" cant see them allowing any censure - nowt from the UN then
The Israelis are coming to resemble killer bees in my eyes, you know bump against their nest a massive swarms comes out and kill everything nearby.
Suspect its a just as instinctive, knee jerky and thought free a process for the bees as it seem for the Israelis

I wouldn't be soo niave as to imagine the Israeli state is entering this without a game plan.

Something is clearly going on, there have been many prisoner exchanges in the past.

I can only assume Israel is trying to provoke a reaction which in turn will get the US involved.

 

[hipipol]

Agreed

They want an excuse to have a go at Syria
VERY VERY bad idea

 

[ZAMB]

According to the article below, it is more likely to be Iran. But, to quote Robert Fisk "The Israelis were yesterday trumpeting the fact that the missile was made in Iran as proof of Iran's involvement in the Lebanon war. This was odd reasoning. Since almost all the missiles used to kill the civilians of Lebanon over the past four days were made in Seattle, Duluth and Miami in the United States, their use already suggests to millions of Lebanese that America is behind the bombardment of their country."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14013.htm

As Israeli firepower rained down on Lebanon last week, pundits here in the West wasted no time pinning the blame on — Iran.

"Iran and its radical allies are pushing toward war," wrote Washington Post columnist David Ignatius.

Washington defence commentator Edward Luttwak weighed in: "Iran's leaders have apparently decided to reject the Western offer to peacefully settle the dispute over its weapons-grade uranium-enrichment program."

In fact, Iran's leaders haven't rejected the "Western offer;" they've said publicly they will respond to it by Aug. 22. This isn't fast enough however to satisfy Washington, which considers the "offer" more of an ultimatum.

Is it really Iran that is pushing for war? Think about it. Why would Iran want to provoke a war with Israel and the U.S. — both heavily armed nuclear powers — when it has no nuclear weapons itself?

The U.S. and Israel, on the other hand, are very keen to attack Iran. In a recent series of articles in New Yorker magazine, Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist Seymour Hersh has detailed Washington's plans to attack Iran. Israel has called Iran a "major threat" that "must be stopped" from developing nuclear weapons.

But the U.S. and Israel don't want to look like aggressors. They insist their intentions are purely defensive. Recall that Washington also claimed its invasion of Iraq was purely defensive — to protect itself from Iraq's arsenal of deadly weapons, which, it turned out, didn't exist.

So when Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon seized two Israeli soldiers last week, a perfect opportunity arose. Since Hezbollah has links to Iran, presto, here was a prima facie case that Iran was gunning for confrontation.

Did the Western pundits who quickly embraced this theory ever consider that the Hezbollah militants, as well as the Palestinian militants in Gaza who captured a single Israeli soldier last month, might have had their own motives for striking Israel?

Certainly the Palestinians have endless grievances against Israel. In addition to four decades of Israeli military occupation of their land, Israel has attempted to destroy the Hamas government, which was democratically elected by Palestinians last January.

Hezbollah's seizure of the two Israeli soldiers was probably an act of support for the Palestinians in Gaza, who have been under Israeli military siege since the capture of the first soldier. Hezbollah also said it seized the soldiers because it wanted to trade them for Lebanese prisoners held in Israeli jails. A similar Israeli-Hezbollah prisoner exchange took place in 2004.

Abandoning Canada's traditional role as an honest broker in the Middle East, Prime Minister Stephen Harper unabashedly supported Israel last week, calling its devastating attacks on Gaza and Lebanon "measured."

If Israel is simply trying to "defend" itself, its actions are wildly disproportionate.

On the other hand, if Israel and the U.S. are looking for an excuse to attack Iran, the capture of the Israeli soldiers is as good as any.

 

[moono]

Abandoning Canada's traditional role as an honest broker in the Middle East, Prime Minister Stephen Harper unabashedly supported Israel last week, calling its devastating attacks on Gaza and Lebanon "measured.

Anybody got a link to how he managed to reconcile that statement with the recent Zionist-bombing deaths of a half-dozen Canadians visiting Lebanon ?

 

[ZAMB]

I get the impression from this story that he doesn't much care. I hate to suggest that this is because these Canadians are of Lebanese origin.

They don't want to (help)," he said, adding the that other foreign governments seem better organized in their attempts to evacuate citizens.

Several attempts to reach the Canadian Embassy in Lebanon were unsuccessful. A recorded message advised "Canadians in need of emergency assistance" to call another number, where another recorded message repeatedly informed waiting callers that "all lines are busy."

The deaths occurred as the federal government began organizing evacuation plans for Canadian citizens in Lebanon while the violence in the region continues to escalate

.

Mahmoud Akhras, who lost his father in the attack and was cousins with the Canadian victims, said around 20 people were seeking shelter in a home when it was rocked during Israeli air strikes.

Akhras said he received little help from consular officials.

"We're seeing that people are not really that interested," he said in a phone interview with The Canadian Press. "What are they waiting for? More victims?"

Akhras said his brother told him the bodies of children killed in the blast were completely decimated.

"These are Canadian citizens, they're not Lebanese," he said. "They were picked up in pieces. Piece by piece."

Another family member pleaded with the Canadian government to intervene.

"They're killing innocent people, they kill children with bombs," said Hussein El-Akhras, Mahmoud's cousin.

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=115454a8-8de0-4ac8-aaed-15f1b55d9000&k=50996

 

[Dhimmi]

According to the article below, it is more likely to be Iran. But, to quote Robert Fisk "The Israelis were yesterday trumpeting the fact that the missile was made in Iran as proof of Iran's involvement in the Lebanon war. This was odd reasoning. Since almost all the missiles used to kill the civilians of Lebanon over the past four days were made in Seattle, Duluth and Miami in the United States, their use already suggests to millions of Lebanese that America is behind the bombardment of their country."

I don't understand how that's odd reasoning, Iran's involvement in Lebanon is pretty well recorded since the eighties isn't it?

 

[tangentlama]

Don't you mean Syria?

 

[ZAMB]

I don't understand how that's odd reasoning, Iran's involvement in Lebanon is pretty well recorded since the eighties isn't it?

Did you even read the article. If the US was blamed every time US weapons are used in a conflict, the Americans would go nuts. Come to think of it, didn't Saddam use US weapons in all those 'war crimes' that he's being tried for now - and he used them with full US govt. knowledge. So why aren't the US Govt. up there in the dock with him??? There is only one answer - the US thinks it has licence to go to any other country in the world and wreak havoc with NO consequences [look at its record since WW2]

Israel has consistently used US weapons, or US funded weapons, in every war crime committed - against the Palestinian people and otherwise. The only reason they aren't called war crimes [even though they go against the Geneva conventions] is that the US vetos every attempt at action [or even censure] against Israel. Isn't it time to change the rules on vetos in the UN so that one country can't block effective action in the case of war crimes?

 

[Dhimmi]

Easy tiger - just asking...

 

[ZAMB]

Now the American press are encouraging the killing with their ghoul's chorus. Not that they even have a pretence of an independent media any more! If this was an ordinary legal matter, like a murder case in the US, the country would be found guilty as accessories both before and after the fact.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article5022.shtml

In an editorial this Saturday, The New York Times clearly
crossed the line from its already biased reporting in
support of Israel, to cheerleading for Israel, and even
advocating that Israel conduct illegal, extrajudicial
executions of Arab political leaders. Positions taken by
the Times matter because it is the US' most influential
newspaper. The Times both reflects and helps to shape US
policy and public opinion. The previous two days, the
editorial and news departments at the Times had stated
clear support for Israel's assaults on Gaza and Lebanon.

 

[warren]

go wave your Star of David else where son..your sounding like an IDF soldier after he shoots a Pal kid dead and then calls her a terrorist...wanker

And you sound like a neo-Nazi. You step over the line from criticism of Israel to hatred of Jews, son.

In Israel if you are an Israeli Arab (a member of the indigenous Palestinian population of Israel) you are barred from living in over 90% of Israel on the basis that this is land set aside for Jews only.

Last time I checked Israeli Arabs had full rights under Israeli law, they even have MPs calling for Israels destruction and supporting Hizb'Allah and Hamas.

Do you think that Jews in Arab countries can do that? Get educated before you spout shit.

 

[ZAMB]

And you sound like a neo-Nazi. You step over the line from criticism of Israel to hatred of Jews, son.

Have you seen the post here on U75 where an Israeli calls the murder of a Palestinian child a "good kill"? Who exactly are the neo-nazis here?

Last time I checked Israeli Arabs had full rights under Israeli law, they even have MPs calling for Israels destruction and supporting Hizb'Allah and Hamas.

Do you think that Jews in Arab countries can do that? Get educated before you spout shit.

I guess you've been looking at Israeli sources rather than Arab, or even HRW?
You can check for yourself on Google, but here's a place to start. To use your own phrase - Get educated before you spout shit.

http://www.arabhra.org/about/palestinianminority.htm

Meanwhile, successive governments have regarded the Arab community as a hostile element in the context of the ongoing violence between Israel and the Occupied Territories. Israel has been in an officially declared state of emergency from 1948 to date, with the state's Arab citizens subjected to military rule from 1948 until 1966. Various pieces of emergency legislation authorise the state to suspend the Arab citizens' civil rights. Especially after the events of October 2000, when 13 Arab citizens of Israel were killed by the Israeli security forces, the situation of the Arab minority has worsened.

The steady right-ward movement of Israeli politics in the new millennium has devastating consequences for the Arab Palestinian minority, and its effects are reflected on all levels of society. The interconnected socio-political developments become manifest in the legal, political and institutional sectors as well as in the Jewish Israeli public.

On the legislative level, the Nationality and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order), also referred to as the Family Reunification Law, raised major concerns both within the Arab minority and the international community. The law was passed by the Israeli Parliament (the Knesset) in July 2003. It states that it is illegal for an Israeli citizen to marry a spouse who is nationally Palestinian.

Furthermore, the law implies distinctions based on ethnicity. In this context,
the issue of Jewish settlements outside Israel.s borders . in the Occupied Territories . is worth noting. An Israeli citizen can live in Israel and marry a resident of the Occupied Territories if this resident lives in an "Israeli community in the region." The only such communities that exist are referred to internationally as settlements, and are without exception only available to people who are Jewish. However, the same Israeli citizen living in Israel cannot marry a resident of the same region . the Occupied Territories . who is Palestinian by ethnicity, nationality, or residence.

Discrimination and racially motivated violence is inherent in Israeli state institutions as well. Institutional discrimination is exemplified by Israel's segregationist school system. Moreover, the appalling increase in police violence against Arab citizens of Israel proves the worrying trend of growing racism.

Arab Palestinian pupils in Israel are educated in a school system wholly separate from the Jewish majority. Due to biased budget allocations and curricula, the Arab education sector offers fewer facilities and educational opportunities than its Jewish counterpart, which leads to a general education deficit among the Palestinian minority citizens. According to a Human Rights Watch Report (Second Class: Discrimination against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel's Schools, 2001); "Palestinian Arab students drop out of school at three times the rate of Jewish students and are less likely to pass the national exams common to the two systems for a high school diploma.
Only a handful make it to university. [.] Israeli government authorities have acknowledged the gaps between Arab and Jewish education but have failed to equalize the two systems."

The growing number of cases of police violence against Arab citizens is another serious institutional problem. Since 13 minority citizens have been killed by Israeli police in October 2000, 15 more Arab citizens have died by the hands of the police. Currently, the HRA.s Research and Reporting unit is investigating the worrying increase of police violence against the Arab minority.

 

[ZAMB]

Last time I checked Israeli Arabs had full rights under Israeli law, they even have MPs calling for Israels destruction and supporting Hizb'Allah and Hamas.

Do you think that Jews in Arab countries can do that? Get educated before you spout shit.

If you want more info about Jewish "democracy" from someone who's actually there I suggest you read

http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0223.htm

and some of the other articles on Jonathan Cook's website www.jkcook.net .

 

[nino_savatte]

Duplicate post

 

[nino_savatte]

I wonder what our Zionist-militarist friends would say about this?
http://maki.org.il/Gaza Crimes.html

 

[warren]

Have you seen the post here on U75 where an Israeli calls the murder of a Palestinian child a "good kill"? Who exactly are the neo-nazis here?



I guess you've been looking at Israeli sources rather than Arab, or even HRW?
You can check for yourself on Google, but here's a place to start. To use your own phrase - Get educated before you spout shit.

What You quoted does not affect Israeli Arabs they still have full rights. This law affects Palestinians - a different entity yo Israeli arabs.

I aint seen the 'good kill' post. However it is a moot point as to whether cemertyone is a Nazi.

BTW on a right wing forum I post on views are considerd anti-Zionist, perspective i guess.

 

[nino_savatte]

What You quoted does not affect Israeli Arabs they still have full rights. This law affects Palestinians - a different entity yo Israeli arabs.

I aint seen the 'good kill' post. However it is a moot point as to whether cemertyone is a Nazi.

BTW on a right wing forum I post on views are considerd anti-Zionist, perspective i guess.

Do you alway label those who disagree with you as "Nazis"? Because if you do, then there really is no point in talking to you.

 

[angry bob]

Whose sea ? There is such a thing as international maritime law, you know. You can't just go kicking jews into the sea anywhere you like.

I didn't make a joke about annihilating jews. Mel Brooks makes jokes about annihilating jews. Woody Allen makes jokes about annihilating jews. Go try to smear Mel Brooks and Woody Allen, you slandering tosser.

So is your first comment a joke or not?

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it seems as though you are saying the reason the Jews cannot be kicked into the sea is international maritime law.

Presumably you are not serious, so it must therefore be a joke?

Now you'd be hard pressed to find a joke in such bad taste from either of the comedians you mention.

But it becomes an especially foolish thing to say in the midst of criticism of Israel iykwim.

Seriously moono, in my opinion you are probably not anti-jewish, but you make some silly comments sometimes that make it all too easy to dismiss you as such.

Making 'edgy' jokes about the genocide of the Jews, or describing Jews in terms that might be considered by some to be rascist, does not sit well in the midst of criticism of Israel.

 

[angry bob]

I meant the 'born in the US' part - although I know quite a few politically active Buddhists [for example] in the USA, and I doubt very much if a non-christian, or a committed athiest, could become president - given the power of the fundamentalist christian and jewish lobbies.

I'm sure you're right ... and that the same is true for the UK and indeed most western democracies.

 

[angry bob]

About dictating who rules through the constitution, isn't that what you were saying, that US had a similar type of constitutional barrier to who can hold certain positions in government, Lebanon by religious factors, US by birth-right?

I "see what you mean" was my response to your post about the "similarity".

The two cases are strikingly different dont you think? The US constituition does indeed bar those who were not born in the US from being president but that is hardly the same thing as a ban on a particular religion or ethnicity.

 

[nino_savatte]

The two cases are strikingly different dont you think? The US constituition does indeed bar those who were not born in the US from being president but that is hardly the same thing as a ban on a particular religion or ethnicity.

That includes American citizens born to military parents abroad. There's something no quite right about a rule that bars US citizens from the highest office because he or she was born overseas. Here in the UK, we aren't quite as xenophobic.