No matter how you look at it, Israel

[lunatrick]

the amount of anti semitism on this forum never ceases to astound me. i honestly do not know what the world expects israel to do in the face of border incursions and kidnappings. In my view whatever comes back is deserved and fully justified.

sorry I don't accept that this place is anti-semetic - this smacks of paranoia......nobody condones kidnapping of soldiers - but this also doesn't justify killing scores of civiliians....

 

[gunneradt]

so what are they supposed to do?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

so what are they supposed to do?

What ever they should do bombing power stations it is not one of the major options.

 

[ZAMB]

the amount of anti semitism on this forum never ceases to astound me. i honestly do not know what the world expects israel to do in the face of border incursions and kidnappings. In my view whatever comes back is deserved and fully justified.

Israel holds both Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners who have not been found guilty of crimes. The obvious course would be to exchange prisoners instead of murdering civilians, don't you think?

Given Israeli settlement policies, I wouldn't be so self-righteous about kidnapping and border-incursions - they have done it again and again - but in your mind they are "fully justified" in using their US weapons if anyone does it back to them???

 

[Dandred]

so what are they supposed to do?

Not bombing schools and powers stations might be a start.....


How about leaving Isreal and go to the US?????

Letting the people who have lived there for the last 1000 years have peace

The Middle East would have far less problems then

 

[lunatrick]

I have historical sympathy with Israel - but the tactics they choose to use just seem heavyhanded - how does the bombing of an innocent child in lebanon not prick at the conscience of an extremely history aware public in Israel?

 

[Dandred]

I have historical sympathy with Israel - but the tactics they choose to use just seem heavyhanded - how does the bombing of an innocent child in lebanon not prick at the conscience of an extremely history aware public in Israel?

Because they think they are right, no matter what.


That's part of their education.

I remember traveling in India and meeting some elderly Israelis and asking about the troubles there, big mistake, they walked away from me and didn't speak to me for 4 days, then they left. I was only 18, I only asked them to explain to me why there was so much trouble in the reagion, they couldn't even give the time to give me an answer.

I understand more now, I think they were just embarrassed.

 

[lunatrick]

worrying though - having been opressed, you would expect empathy towards (at the very least) civillians...

 

[BigBoyJun]

Wookster:Israel is not willing to make painful compromises? How do you figure? Gaza was not painful enough?
.

Gaza, a tiny sliver of land and the most densely populated corner of this planet, no water, little arable land left.

Giving up 96% of the "West Bank" is not enough? Please clarify.
.

Sorry when did this happen, I think we are all still waiting. 96% figure is a lie.

 

[BigBoyJun]

Lebanon has an unspoken but very honoured agreement specifying which ethnicity/religion may seve in which governmental capacity

I think you will find that it is written into the constitution.

 

[ZAMB]

I think you will find that it is written into the constitution.

Hasn't the US got something similar?

 

[BigBoyJun]

the amount of anti semitism on this forum never ceases to astound me. i honestly do not know what the world expects israel to do in the face of border incursions and kidnappings. In my view whatever comes back is deserved and fully justified.

How about a nuke on the 1.5 million in Beirut?

 

[BigBoyJun]

sorry I don't accept that this place is anti-semetic - this smacks of paranoia......nobody condones kidnapping of soldiers - but this also doesn't justify killing scores of civiliians....

Nobody condones kidnapping of soldiers? I don't agree, Israel has been kidnapping people from Lebanon for the last 30 years, and many of them are sitting in Israeli jails. If we are going to talk about this issue let us at least get all the facts out there. There are Hezbollah soldiers in Israel, call them kidnapped, arrested or apprehended, whatever you want. Lets condemn that as well for the sake of fairness and accuracy.

 

[BigBoyJun]

Hasn't the US got something similar?

They have a constitution, don't know if there is a religious quota built into it though, don't think so though.

 

[ZAMB]

Nobody condones kidnapping of soldiers? I don't agree, Israel has been kidnapping people from Lebanon for the last 30 years, and many of them are sitting in Israeli jails. If we are going to talk about this issue let us at least get all the facts out there. There are Hezbollah soldiers in Israel, call them kidnapped, arrested or apprehended, whatever you want. Lets condemn that as well for the sake of fairness and accuracy.

For Israelis [as with the US] it is 'Don't do as I do, do as I say'. We are supposed to just forget the massive crimes of the IDF.

 

[ZAMB]

They have a constitution, don't know if there is a religious quota built into it though, don't think so though.

I meant the 'born in the US' part - although I know quite a few politically active Buddhists [for example] in the USA, and I doubt very much if a non-christian, or a committed athiest, could become president - given the power of the fundamentalist christian and jewish lobbies.

 

[newharper]

Hasn't the US got something similar?

No, I think you will find that it is the total opposite.

 

[BigBoyJun]

I meant the 'born in the US' part - although I know quite a few politically active Buddhists [for example] in the USA, and I doubt very much if a non-christian, or a committed athiest, could become president - given the power of the fundamentalist christian and jewish lobbies.

See what you mean ZAMB

 

[ZAMB]

See what you mean ZAMB

What do you mean?

 

[BigBoyJun]

What do you mean?

About dictating who rules through the constitution, isn't that what you were saying, that US had a similar type of constitutional barrier to who can hold certain positions in government, Lebanon by religious factors, US by birth-right?

I "see what you mean" was my response to your post about the "similarity".

 

[ZAMB]

Tom Paine, who helped to write the US Bill of Rights, would be disgusted at the way government and religion are now almost inseparable in the US.

It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.

There is scarcely any part of science, or anything in nature, which those imposters and blasphemers of science, called priests, as well Christians as Jews, have not, at some time or other, perverted, or sought to pervert to the purpose of superstition and falsehood.

The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.
-- Thomas Paine

 

[Wookster]

Maybe your problems would be solved if Israel was dismantled, the Jews were kicked into the sea and then the Palestinians could have a non-democratic state like the rest of the Arab World.

Typical post... its either all or nothing, no middle ground.

Your post sounds very much akin to the rhetoric coming out of the apartheid south african government... if we let them rule, they will push us into the sea etc etc.

Wookster:Israel is not willing to make painful compromises? How do you figure? Gaza was not painful enough? Giving up 96% of the "West Bank" is not enough? Please clarify.

Gaza has already been well addressed earlier here. Would you like to respond to that?

96% of the West Bank? What on earth gives Israel the right to take that 4%? That is theft you're talking about and my theft of ANYTHING is unnaceptable.
What right do you have to that land?

If you are talking about the so called camp david offer, its widely regarded that Ehud Barak could never have sold that to people in a referendum (why there would be a referendum on lands not owned by Israel is beyond me in the first place.

 

[warren]

So not only are you ignorant of the political status of Egypt, Lebanon and the UAE but now you're also completely fucking useless at geography? You think that israel is lobbing shells acros the length of africa to hit Lebanon?

Again ill ask you what Arab countries in the Middle East have a democratic state. Egypt & UAE certainly do not. Lebanon it is arguable. Come on, idiot spit it out!!

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Again ill ask you what Arab countries in the Middle East have a democratic state. Egypt & UAE certainly do not. Lebanon it is arguable. Come on, idiot spit it out!!

Lebanon for one. The gaza strip for two.

Now, my irritation at you here was started by this particulary stupid post:

Maybe your problems would be solved if Israel was dismantled, the Jews were kicked into the sea and then the Palestinians could have a non-democratic state like the rest of the Arab World.

I understand that it's hard to admit that you are wrong, but here you are clearly incorrect. Are you going to admit that or just continue to bluster?

 

[warren]

Lebanon for one. The gaza strip for two.

Now, my irritation at you here was started by this particulary stupid post:


I understand that it's hard to admit that you are wrong, but here you are clearly incorrect. Are you going to admit that or just continue to bluster?

The Gaza strip is not a country and I already mention Lebanon as a possibility, but in all honesty is not a true democratic state.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&year=2005&country=6773

There are no Arab democracies in the ME, unless you count Iraq. This is not a bad thing after all, just look at that place.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

The Gaza strip is not a country and I already mention Lebanon as a possibility, but in all honesty is not a true democratic state.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&year=2005&country=6773

There are no Arab democracies in the ME, unless you count Iraq. This is not a bad thing after all, just look at that place.

Gazza is run by a democratic elected government, i don't really care if you recognise it or not.

Let's not pretend Iraq has anything to do with democracy, it's less of a country than a warzone.

 

[warren]

Gazza is run by a democratic elected government, i don't really care if you recognise it or not.

Let's not pretend Iraq has anything to do with democracy, it's less of a country than a warzone.

I recognise the government in Aza (I doubt they care either way whether I do) but it still isnt a sovereign country.

And what you said about Iraq could also be applied to Aza.

 

[Wookster]

Come on guys, lets stick to the topic - Israel and the sacrifices necessary for peace.

It does't matter who is and isn't a democracy in the Middle East, just if Israel is ready to compromise.

 

[bluestreak]

of course israel isn't willing to compromise. look at it form their govt's position, they've got all the power. they've got the wealth, the weapons, the big boys backing them up, and when anyone criticises they can cry "anti-semitism" and make everyone coo over their poor picked up settlers.

IMO israel has completely lost its legitimacy now. attacking lebanese citizens is completely wrong, no morality at all.

 

[moono]

The attack on Lebanon is another collective punishment, well, it's actually an extension of the collective punishment of Gaza.