No Borders activists "detain" immigration minister Phil Woolas...

[durruti02]

how though do the majority of people think when they seen the @s / left acting over issues like this when ignoring more general issues?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

and what have the SWP said about this?

 

[Prince Rhyus]

It's all the posh folk in Saddleworth who vote him in each time coz they're terrified the pakis (TM) might make it up the hill from Oldham and rape their ponies or summat. He doesn't have a great deal of clout in the the town and poor areas where all the trouble is. He's pretty much ignored in the town, and that's where he has to keep his hand in really. The only reason he gets in the papers at all is coz he's cabinet tackle, and he was only made immigration minister coz of the riots. He is so far removed from what actually went on it's a joke. Saddleworth count themselves as part of Yorkshire FFS. Not offically, but it's a long standing feud about it.

He won't be in the position long. Not long enough to fuck things up in his usual cack handed way anyway.

Sorry, might have strayed slightly from the point there. Alcohol works. Woolas is a clueless prick. As are the fash who need to look up their colours.

I had the impression that he was quite highly regarded in his constituency.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

and what have the SWP said about this?

Shhhhh..........one of their committees is in deep discussion over this issue and will be making a statement and publishing a press release in the near future.

 

[Raw SslaC]

how though do the majority of people think when they seen the @s / left acting over issues like this when ignoring more general issues?

But equally so when I was on the LCAP demo with you in Hackney a couple of weeks ago. It was small, about 40 people marching down a road. I'm not knocking it but it is not just a question to pick the right issue, there are also other barriers like the complete lack of political autonomy that exists within the wider class. Where are the political organisations, the self-activity, the participation. it is endemic of decades of de-politicisation, unfortunately it has meant a complete underming of working class political and collective action as a form of improving conditions. I am certain that this is going to change during this deep crisis, and we need to be organised, serious and a viable alternative to others attempting to occupy that space - reformed trade unionism/social justice unionism and the BNP.

 

[llantwit]

From doing street campaigning with No Borders in Cardiff I don't buy the idea that the No Borders label alienates or scares people off (whatever their class or ethnicity). There are right-wing wankers about, sure, but I'm not gonna change their minds any time soon. What you also see, though, is a strong support and silent solidarity with migrants and asylum seekers among everyday people that you might not expect to find. It surprised me, anyway, and I wouldn't have known about it if it wasn't for the local No Borders group putting out a class-based, solidarity-orientated, critique on the streets.

'No Borders' as a part of a general political leftist/autonomist programme of action isn't a new idea, but it's been obscured by years of right-wing press and political cowardice. There's still a lot of 'instinctive' support for this kind of politics, and we shouldn't shy away from building around this slogan for for fear of scaring folks off.

 

[purplex]

No borders my arse.
Thats about as appropriate as no immigration.Stupid, unworkable, utopian bollocks.
Dogma, in place of policies that represent the working class of this country.
You're handing it to the right on a plate.
The left wing in this country need to represent the needs of the people of this country first and foremost or you will become so far detached you will be an irrelevance.

 

[purplex]

So because the fash might get a few votes that's a reason for no direct action to take place what soever? if they're going to get votes it won't be through hearng about stuff like, this, i suppose we might as well all kill ourselves so we don't put oruselves at any risk at all of doing something which might upset the applecart and give the bnp more support

Its not about the bnp getting support, its about a failure to identify with and represent the needs of the working class in this country.

 

[Raw SslaC]

Its not about the bnp getting support, its about a failure to identify with and represent the needs of the working class in this country.

bollocks, as if the needs of the working class are confined within this country. We live in an INTERNATIONAL market place of labour, if you deny the fact that the working class is an international entity you surpress the only response which can undermine international capitalism.

Have a look where your IPOD is made or DVD player or your car and you tell me about working class in this country?!!

 

[purplex]

bollocks, as if the needs of the working class are confined within this country. We live in an INTERNATIONAL market place of labour, if you deny the fact that the working class is an international entity you surpress the only response which can undermine international capitalism.

Have a look where your IPOD is made or DVD player or your car and you tell me about working class in this country?!!

No borders is exactly what the international capitalists would want, the freedom to export cheap labour round the world at will, doesnt provide economic freedom but economic slavery.
This years episode at the total oil refinery just goes to show what happens when local needs are ignored.
As for international capitalism, how about you fight it with an international network of integrated organizations each focussed on local needs.
The opinion polls in this country have shown immigration as one of the biggest issues this country faces - consistently for many years, and your answer to that is no borders, Im sorry but its a concept thats out of touch and one that ignores the needs of the working class in this country.
And Im not anti-immigration at all in case youre wondering, but no borders is right now, the worst flag the left could be flying.

 

[Raw SslaC]

No borders is exactly what the international capitalists would want, the freedom to export cheap labour round the world at will, doesnt provide economic freedom but economic slavery.
This years episode at the total oil refinery just goes to show what happens when local needs are ignored.
As for international capitalism, how about you fight it with an international network of integrated organizations each focussed on local needs.
The opinion polls in this country have shown immigration as one of the biggest issues this country faces - consistently for many years, and your answer to that is no borders, Im sorry but its a concept thats out of touch and one that ignores the needs of the working class in this country.
And Im not anti-immigration at all in case youre wondering, but no borders is right now, the worst flag the left could be flying.

Your saying we should argue a nationalist line fundementally - I'm saying we should argue an internationalist line. Whether the slogan "No Borders" is used or not is beside the point.

 

[durruti02]

Your saying we should argue a nationalist line fundementally - I'm saying we should argue an internationalist line. Whether the slogan "No Borders" is used or not is beside the point.

there is also the workers line which is neither nationalistic nor a meaningless internationalism .. that is that workers should control where we live and work .. that recognises how the bosses and capital actually control movement NOT the state

and it is that that must be our priority in the here and now .. the demand for control by ordinary people is absolutely fundamental .. though i accept it may not always look pretty ..

no borders is ONLY capable of being acheived via a society where workers/people are in control .. and ditto refugees and migrants will only be defended adequately when workers have more power

putting the demand for free individualistic movement in the here and now has some ideologically pluses but a whole load of minuses

 

[durruti02]

No borders is exactly what the international capitalists would want, the freedom to export cheap labour round the world at will, doesnt provide economic freedom but economic slavery.
This years episode at the total oil refinery just goes to show what happens when local needs are ignored.
As for international capitalism, how about you fight it with an international network of integrated organizations each focussed on local needs.
The opinion polls in this country have shown immigration as one of the biggest issues this country faces - consistently for many years, and your answer to that is no borders, Im sorry but its a concept thats out of touch and one that ignores the needs of the working class in this country.
And Im not anti-immigration at all in case youre wondering, but no borders is right now, the worst flag the left could be flying.

well put