No Border Camp in Calais 23rd-29th June

[Dic Penderyn]

So is anyone off here gonna go?

http://calaisnoborder.eu.org/
http://london.noborders.org.uk/calais2009
http://noborderswales.org.uk/category/no-border-camp/

 

[skyscraper101]

Does it advocate having the UK in Schengen? It's well annoying having to go through border control on the Eurostar.

 

[Dic Penderyn]

Bit more radical than that. Here's an article explaining the motivation for the camp - "Breaking the law of the Jungle"

 

[Dic Penderyn]

There's a whole bunch of public meetings about the camp coming up too, so far there's some in; Cardiff, Reading, London, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh.

A photo exhibition of the situation in Calais "No Land's Men" is currently touring the country. Dunno all the dates.

 

[tufty79]

cheers for the info, dic penderyn

 

[pk]

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.

Are we supposed to throw open the gates for anyone to just rock up and start signing on?

What do you think the obvious effects of that would be to those people who are currently living here and claiming dole?

I agree the humanitarian situation in Calais could be a lot more intelligently handled, and can't think of a good reason why Sangatte was closed down, but to allow limitless Iraqis and Afghans in to the UK without any form of ID is economic and political suicide.

There are major health risks, the obvious terror threats, and you can bet that among the first people that will be screaming foul are those who in all likelihood a major part of this No Borders campaign - those young men and women currently claiming JSA or Housing Benefits - when the system is utterly overwhelmed and all payouts are stopped.

 

[_float_]

@ pk

You are mixing a whole bunch of issues together:

People travelling into and out of a country.
People getting unemployment benefit and housing benefit.
People being asked for ID when crossing borders.
The predicted financial and economic impacts of 'no borders'.
Risks to public health.
Risks of terrorism.

FWIW there are plenty of people who allowed to travel to the UK but not allowed to work (eg on a 6-month tourist/visitors visa). There are people alowed to work but not allowed to claim benefits (eg some of the new EU countries, unless they have paid 12 months worth of NI contributions). Even people allowed to travel freely can be asked for ID.

Re. public health - how many people are screened for illnesses when arriving in the UK? Hardly any at all. Re. terrorism - how hard is it for someone with sufficient funds to come to the UK as a student or tourist? Not hard at all. This means that there would probably be not much difference in the difficulty of entry for a serious would-be terrorist.

The economic impact is vague: if the national minimum wage and working hours and conditions are enforced then employers will prefer people with the right skills - including language and customer service skills. If people didn't lose benefits when earning money then they are in a good position to work even in minimum wage jobs and stuill be able to pay their rent etc, whereas people who have "no recourse to public funds" would have a far harder time competeing for these jobs and finding affordable rent etc. This would mean that it would only be worth coming to the UK for work if somone had sufficient skills and earning capacity, because of the high cost of living here, including the additional expenses of having to pay for things that UK/EU residents get for free.

There are a lot of ways in which travelling to and living and working in the UK could be made more free, while still not extending all benefits and public services freely to everyone on the day of their arrival. You could still check everyone's ID for the purposes of fighting crime/terrorism. Trying to pretend that all of these things are inflexibly locked together is nonsense - there are a in fact a whole range of different combinations possible.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I recall reading that a journalism student went to that camp they call 'the jungle' and was raped.

Just Googled: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/30/france.canada

Bear in mind personal safety if you are going.

 

[Raw SslaC]

I recall reading that a journalism student went to that camp they call 'the jungle' and was raped.

Just Googled: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/30/france.canada

Bear in mind personal safety if you are going.

We are so lucky in the UK that no one gets raped -- oh wait, 13,000+ rapes last year - for those going to the calais let those immigrants know to bear in mind personal safety if travelling to the UK.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

We are so lucky in the UK that no one gets raped -- oh wait, 13,000+ rapes last year - for those going to the calais let those immigrants know to bear in mind personal safety if travelling to the UK.

Oh, so just because people get raped in the UK, that means that someone going on a fluffy mission to such a place as 'the Jungle' in Calais shouldn't be made aware that even though their intentions are fluffy and compassionate and constructive and helpful, then they should assume that because they are going to help people that they are therefore in no danger whatsoever, and should throw all caution to the wind.

If a female journalism student could make that mistake, then so might others, so fuck off.

 

[Raw SslaC]

Oh, so just because people get raped in the UK, that means that someone going on a fluffy mission to such a place as 'the Jungle' in Calais shouldn't be made aware that even though their intentions are fluffy and compassionate and constructive and helpful, then they should assume that because they are going to help people that they are therefore in no danger whatsoever, and should throw all caution to the wind.

If a female journalism student could make that mistake, then so might others, so fuck off.

I responded in the context of how the rape was reported and the media attempted to make out that immigrants = rapists. Apologies. There is nothing to suggest that there is a greater or lesser threat to a women who is going to calais than a women who is going out on a friday night in London.

 

[_float_]

@ AnnO'Neemus

Based on the figures, is this "Jungle" more or less dangerous than London?

Here are the figures for London: http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/

 

[purplex]

@ AnnO'Neemus

Based on the figures, is this "Jungle" more or less dangerous than London?

Here are the figures for London: http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/

she wasnt making the argument that it was more or less safe, she was simply stating what had happened previously and to just be careful thats all. ffs. Stop derailing the thread.

 

[Dic Penderyn]

It's the front cover story of this week's SchNEWS and a video to promote the camp is now online, as are details of the transnational demonstration on Saturday 27th.

There's lots of info-nights and benefit gigs happening around the country, check out your local No Border group.

 

[Dic Penderyn]

The camp location and programme has been released, if you can't make it down to the camp itself but want to keep up to date with what happens there, check out this twitter.

 

[goosegrease]

The rape comment was a bit crass. Can I make a political point? Well I will. Not doin' yourselves any favours with this. As an anti fash with anarchist sympathies most working class folk just think your fucking around with complete disreguard for what anyone thinks but your own take on no borders, no nations.
While we have such massive global inequalities that the ruling class can play poor worker against better off worker this aint helping. Illegal immigrants just go to the bottom the pile when they get here. What about human trafficking of young, vounerable girls into the sex trade? or the fact illegal workers get treated like shit by unscrupolous gang masters?
Want to by pass the whole boring process of building community based campaigns? Go bump off a few pimps.

 

[Dic Penderyn]

I don't want to by pass the whole 'boring' process of building community based campaigns. That's the central aspect of our organising in No Borders South Wales.

As a working class person I am always really irritated when I'm told what 'most of us' believe on a given subject. The fact is that the rich are the enemy and the global poor are prospective allies in the struggle for an equal society. As working class activists we are obliged to show solidarity with people who the state are coming down hard on, The wretched of the earth who find themselves trapped on the borders are on the receiving end of some of the most violent activities of the state. Next week for a few days we're travelling there to show some solidarity.

There is no doubt that in a market economy such as the one we live in migrant labour creates greater competition for employment. The answer is not to oppose freedom of movement, but rather to oppose the market economy. If we are ever going to build the kind of movement that is able to oppose the massive global economic inequalities then we need to reject the imagined community of the nation and look towards the shared interests of working class people the world over.

 

[Pickman's model]

i heard that the camp site's been squatted. is this true?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The wretched of the earth who find themselves trapped on the borders are on the receiving end of some of the most violent activities of the state. .

If there are people from Afghanistan in Calais, trying to get across, then they couldn't be very trapped: they had to get to Calais from Afghanistan somehow.

 

[untethered]

Why would someone coming from outside the EU seeking asylum want to travel to the UK before making their claim? Why not claim in France, or indeed, the first EU country they reached?

 

[bemused]

Why would someone coming from outside the EU seeking asylum want to travel to the UK before making their claim? Why not claim in France, or indeed, the first EU country they reached?

Because they probably speak English or want to.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Because they probably speak English or want to.

Do a lot of Afghanis speak English?

 

[untethered]

Because they probably speak English or want to.

Well I'd like to learn quite a few things but I suspect if I were in fear of my life brushing up my language skills wouldn't be high on my list of priorities.

Why should the fact that English is a widespread langauge mean that the UK should bear a disproportionate number of asylum claims?

 

[untethered]

Do a lot of Afghanis speak English?

To a man.

But no Moroccans speak French or Spanish. Not a single one.

 

[bemused]

Why should the fact that English is a widespread langauge mean that the UK should bear a disproportionate number of asylum claims?

I didn't say it should, just giving an opinion why people come here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

edited going to bed

 

[goosegrease]

I don't want to by pass the whole 'boring' process of building community based campaigns. That's the central aspect of our organising in No Borders South Wales.

As a working class person I am always really irritated when I'm told what 'most of us' believe on a given subject. The fact is that the rich are the enemy and the global poor are prospective allies in the struggle for an equal society. As working class activists we are obliged to show solidarity with people who the state are coming down hard on, The wretched of the earth who find themselves trapped on the borders are on the receiving end of some of the most violent activities of the state. Next week for a few days we're travelling there to show some solidarity.

There is no doubt that in a market economy such as the one we live in migrant labour creates greater competition for employment. The answer is not to oppose freedom of movement, but rather to oppose the market economy. If we are ever going to build the kind of movement that is able to oppose the massive global economic inequalities then we need to reject the imagined community of the nation and look towards the shared interests of working class people the world over.

yeah ok I don't want to give you any kind of "most of us believe" line. I've been involved in supporting asylum seekers for years, against the general demonising of them in the mainstream media that has contributed to the current bout of racism amoungst working class communities.
I don't think that advocating an open border policy, or attempting to open a border by force at this stage is the best thing to be doing. To build a working class movement you first have to attract an active working class interest in your ideas and tactics.
I don't think that an open border would be a good thing right now anyway. The question posed should be who controls the border? Who decides who comes to Britain and for what reason? Immigration is used as a means of undermining hard fought for rights by the working class. As I often say to people, why would anyone want to come here? It's not for the climate or the shining opotunities on offer. Most immigrants become marginalised and exploited within already deprived areas, compounding the daily problems faced by the people within those areas.
There is also the problem that if these islands were to become the only place in the world that has open borders then it could become a haven for individuals and organisations who have less than good reasons for wanting to come here. Organised crime, escape from conviction for crimes such as murder and rape. Just because the likes of the Daily Mail jump on and consistantly highlight these issues beyond proportion dosn't mean that they don't exist at all.
Arguing for working class control of the borders and linking it with the need to support our bros and sisters in struggle against the poverty caused by global capitalism in other parts of the world is to me the way forward. There is no easy answer to this question and you have my support in spirit.

 

[In Bloom]

I don't think that advocating an open border policy, or attempting to open a border by force at this stage is the best thing to be doing. To build a working class movement you first have to attract an active working class interest in your ideas and tactics.

Nobody in No Borders (to my knowledge) just wants totally open borders for the UK alone under capitalism, it's a silly strawman.

Frankly, if workplace and community organisation by and for the working class were as widespread as I (and I suspect you) would like it to be, the economy would completely collapse into an even worse state than the one it is in now. Our needs cannot be fully met under capitalism, surely that's the whole point?

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Yeah - if you're going to get rid of borders, you're going to have to abolish capitalism too, as otherwise it would essentially mean a return of colonialism, with companies having complete carte blanche to move to countries which currently limit them from doing so.

 

[smokedout]

the UK takes in less asylum seekers already than most comparable european countries, so it is disproportionate - just not in the way you thought