NIESR shows up immigration lies of state and left ..

[tbaldwin]

i have a question.

what are the working classes doing to protect themselves?

are they forming labour unions of some sort? are they seeking deals with immigrant labour that gives them powers over the bosses? are they trying to organise their way out? are they playing along with the capitalists' games and trying to offer better value for money? are they doing something that i haven't thought of yet? or are they bitching about the foreigners and expecting them to fuck off back where they came from so we can exploit them from a distance?

because while i know there are a few individuals and groups trying to organise, for the most part it seems that the solution to this is that we should restrict immigration and leave the foreign working classes to fend for themselves in their own countries. as long as the british working classes are willing to exploit foreign labour themselves within the capitalist system how can they expect anyone to have sympathy with their plight? recently the working classes in this country are seeing the real cost of their own cheap materialism.... they should learn from this and use it to organise and protect themselves, not attack fellow w/c trying to survive just like them.

Bluestreak...The thing is that Internationalism must mean looking at the International consequences of supporting free market migration policies...
And those consequences are catastrophic.
Poorer nations are stopped from developing if they have a lack of skilled workers. Supporting the rights of workers to leave poor countries is not any kind of solution for the majority of the worlds population and just exacerbates worldwide division and inequality.

 

[In Bloom]

or are they bitching about the foreigners and expecting them to fuck off back where they came from so we can exploit them from a distance?

Don't give me that third worldist crap.

What have working class people living in this country done to "exploit" working class people in other countries?

 

[tbaldwin]

I'd just ignore Giles if I were you, mate, he's a nasty little toff who thinks he's being clever.

He barely warrents contempt, never mind the exact response he's looking for.

I think that Giles is entitled to his opinion(s)..A lot of people do think like him..And the point surely of a discussion board is to discuss with people who have opinions you disagree with.

 

[In Bloom]

I think that Giles is entitled to his opinion(s)

He most certainly is, just as I am entitled to think he is a vile little shit as a result of his opinions.

A lot of people do think like him..And the point surely of a discussion board is to discuss with people who have opinions you disagree with.

Which is all very well, except that Giles isn't after a sensible discussion, he's after an argument. I just don't see the point in engaging with somebody who have no intention of even considering what you have to say, it's a collossal waste of time.

 

[durruti02]

I agree that the solution lies in the workplace on this one, though I'm not sure what you mean by "demanding employers recruit locally", how would that work?

i guess individual trade unions and maybe even borough Trades Councils would seek agreements with employers .. like TELCO does on wages e.g. in the NHS ..

 

[audiotech]

Thats your line of arguement now is it....An ex member of the SWP who turned into a bit of a Tory twat....Not exactly suprising.....

ffs, lighten up man.

 

[tbaldwin]

ffs, lighten up man.

Lighten up? Im like a beacon of light in the darkness of urban75.

 

[Pigeon]

Lighten up? Im like a beacon of light in the darkness of urban75.

Indeed. You're like a streak of bat's piss, a shaft of irridescence illuminating the gloom in which we toil.

 

[audiotech]

More like:

 

[ViolentPanda]

More like:

I'm NOT going to ask where the batteries go!

 

[In Bloom]

Behead those who use Comic Sans MS!

i guess individual trade unions and maybe even borough Trades Councils would seek agreements with employers .. like TELCO does on wages e.g. in the NHS ..

Hmm, I'm more than a little suspicious of agreements between trade union officials and employers. It always seems to end up being more about the trade unionists getting their feet under the table than anything else.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hmm, I'm more than a little suspicious of agreements between trade union officials and employers. It always seems to end up being more about the trade unionists getting their feet under the table than anything else.

The behaviour of many trade union heirarchies since "the rise of new Labour" hasn't done much to reassure anyone who is suspicious that many trade unions aren't still slavishly bound to selling new Labour policy to their members rather than representing the wishes of those members

 

[tbaldwin]

Indeed. You're like a streak of bat's piss, a shaft of irridescence illuminating the gloom in which we toil.

Its nice to be appreciated.

 

[durruti02]

Hmm, I'm more than a little suspicious of agreements between trade union officials and employers. It always seems to end up being more about the trade unionists getting their feet under the table than anything else.

well i'm not sure what you mean .. i understand that there has been a lot of dodgy deals done thru time .. BUT from my 29 years of union work it seems to me that there has NOT been enough deals done FOR us AND we no longer have our feet under the table .. nor anywhere NEAR the table ..

we need to get some decent pro w/c campiagning back ..you are right to be suspcious of the big unions .. but we need to inject something progressive into the mix ..

BUT BUT BUT tbh this antipathy to trade unions, masked as criticism of trade union officials , seems to crop up a lot on urban

" trade unionists getting their feet under the table..." ???? is this wrong????

it seems to me we need a LOT more of this??

 

[ViolentPanda]

BUT BUT BUT tbh this antipathy to trade unions, masked as criticism of trade union officials , seems to crop up a lot on urban

" trade unionists getting their feet under the table..." ???? is this wrong????

it seems to me we need a LOT more of this??

IMHO you're reading it wrong.
I see plenty of criticism of trade union heirarchies, and a lot of it is valid. We've seen G-d know how many of the large unions having their middle and upper "management" having public bunfights, scads of them defending themselves at union expense from charges ranging from thievery to sexual harrassment, and some of the upper "management" on salaries they should feel embarassed to claim, given how pitiful the wages of some of their members are. We also have a great deal of trade union "power-brokers" who are so entwined with new Labour ideology that they won't disengage unless and until their membership demands it

What I don't see (except from rightwingers) is criticism of trade unions as a vehicle for political action or of the general membership of trades unions.

 

[treelover]

article in the DM about immigration, whats new?, however its not the usual rabid outpourings even though its from migration watch.

A blunder for which we'll all pay the price

by SIR ANDREW GREEN Last updated at 09:01am on 22nd November 2006

Britain is facing the largest wave of immigration for nearly 1,000 years. The number of Huguenots B in the 17th century and the Jews a century ago are trivial compared to the present flows.

A large part of the inflow comes from the new East European members of the EU. If these people wish to work, they must register, and today's figures show that the number who have registered since eight new countries joined in May 2004 has hit the half-million mark.

The Home Office, never let it be forgotten, predicted that this figure would be a maximum 26,000 over two years.

What effect is all this having and how long can we expect it to continue?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...ent.html?in_page_id=1787&in_article_id=417883

 

[tbaldwin]

article in the DM about immigration, whats new?, however its not the usual rabid outpourings even though its from migration watch.

Scum though the Mail is...It is shooting at an Open goal......The Left is badly out of step with public opinion...And they are ironically supporting very right wing free market policies on immigration.

 

[audiotech]

Scum though the Mail is...It is shooting at an Open goal......The Left is badly out of step with public opinion...And they are ironically supporting very right wing free market policies on immigration.

Are you now suggesting that 'open borders' has been adopted by the right wing?

 

[brasicritique]

'open borders' has been adopted by the middle class or 89.9 percent of urbanites if you will

 

[stevepinker]

Open borders is great cause you can pay people a wage that they could never live on in this country

Leaving loads of money to buy fair trade bananas

 

[audiotech]

'open borders' has been adopted by the middle class or 89.9 percent of urbanites if you will

I hazard a guess that the Daily Mail/Express reading middle classes haven't. If you're saying that 89.9 percent of U75 posters are middle class? Then let's have a poll to see if your assertion is confirmed, or not.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

'open borders' has been adopted by the middle class or 89.9 percent of urbanites if you will

No it hasn't. At all.

 

[ViolentPanda]

'open borders' has been adopted by the middle class or 89.9 percent of urbanites if you will

Oooh, let me guess. You're one of the 10.5% who isn't a middle-class Urbanite then?

Pull the other one, you guilt-ridden plum.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Open borders is great cause you can pay people a wage that they could never live on in this country

Leaving loads of money to buy fair trade bananas

And you got the information that money saved by employing immigrants is spent on fair trade bananas where?

It's probably more likely to have been spent on fees for private schooling and other mechanisms that perpetuate social divisions.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No it hasn't. At all.

You won't convince brasicattack of that. If he's said it then it must be true.

At least in his own pointy head.

 

[audiotech]

The article linked to is confusing:

...we risk building up an underclass of long-term unemployed.

then:

...believe it or not, vacancies are still at 600,000.

and:

...they are also adding to consumer demand, which, in turn, creates more jobs so that vacancies in the labour market remain the same.

then we have the usual:

...become an ever-more crowded island...Gridlock...Children are turning up at school gates with no English...Rents are rising sharply....More young people find it impossible to get on the housing ladder

all the fault of immigrants?

*barges elbows to avoid the crowds in my living room*

 

[rauscher]

A lot of Polish workers who arrived in Britain expecting to find work were badly disappointed. What did they do?

a) claim unemployment benefit?
b) beg in the streets?
c) return to Poland?

I think you'll find c) is the correct answer.

Workers in Britain have been blaming immigrants for their problems with wages and conditions for at least 40 years.

I recall the miners strike in the 1980's. It was crushed, destroyed because British workers were too selfish/afraid to come out in support.

Now we have a scapegoat to blame for our own ignorance and stupidity. The Poles. How convenient.

 

[durruti02]

I hazard a guess that the Daily Mail/Express reading middle classes haven't. If you're saying that 89.9 percent of U75 posters are middle class? Then let's have a poll to see if your assertion is confirmed, or not.

i guarantee that the owners editors of the DM etc support open borders for labour and that a majority or large minority of their readers do too .. (maybe on the quiet!!)

.. this is a paper of the small employer who has been at the forefront of the race to the bottem in wages and employing cheap labour

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

WHAT IS BEING ARGUED FOR IS RESTRICTING THE RIGHT OF THE BOSSES TO IMPORT LABOUR ..

Stop shouting. What about arguing for bosses to treat all workers to a basic minimum standard, to stop exploiting their labour force then? Regardless of where that labour force originates from? You know, workers standing up for each other, rather than pointing the finger at other workers and blaming them for the ills of another? Just a thought like.

I agree with what bluestreak wrote:

as long as the british working classes are willing to exploit foreign labour themselves within the capitalist system how can they expect anyone to have sympathy with their plight? recently the working classes in this country are seeing the real cost of their own cheap materialism.... they should learn from this and use it to organise and protect themselves, not attack fellow w/c trying to survive just like them.

 

[durruti02]

Stop shouting. What about arguing for bosses to treat all workers to a basic minimum standard, to stop exploiting their labour force then? Regardless of where that labour force originates from? You know, workers standing up for each other, rather than pointing the finger at other workers and blaming them for the ills of another? Just a thought like.

not shouting .... EMPHASISING!

AND AGREE WITH ALL THE REST YOU SAY .. there is no blame attactched at all to anyone who seeks work anywhere ( unless they deliberately seek to undercut wages ) .. but if we had proper labour laws we would just not have the same type of immigration we have at present ..